Statistics, lies and university rankings ...

[marshlander]

I was going to put this message in another thread, but it was too much of a distraction from the main discussion. So I hope it’s okay to start a new one.

I happen to believe there is an underlying dishonesty in our education system, which is reinforced through successive governments imposing targets and reporting through inspections and league tables. I will say at the outset that I am not a mathematician or statistician and the information makes as much sense to me as alchemy, but it does seem that figures can be manipulated many ways.

One person in the other discussion made an unsubstantiated assertion on the ranking of one university, in the context of it affecting university funding. I’d like to take it on from there.
… Cardiff uni is the 7th best in the UK they dont go for the funding as they get it whatever.
To the best of my knowledge, no institution of further or higher education gets all of its funding “whatever”. While some may indeed be acquired from untouchable sources state funding is not a divine right under the current system. Every department I’ve ever encountered in any education institution seems to be continually chasing funding or writing reports justifying why its budget should not be cut. Despite assertions to the contrary in the previous discussion, the number of “bums on seats” and the ability to keep them there influences at least part of this funding. We are discussing university education here, so we ought at least try to make use of evidence in the form of available published data. I’d be interested to know where the position “7th” came from. The figures published in The Times show that rather than being 7th, Cardiff was ranked 16th in 2007 and appears to have slipped to 28th in 2008. The current list can be found at:
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I found the criteria used in assessing the rankings quite interesting too. Some of them appear to allow for subjective judgement. This is obviously going to make a difference to the way the data are processed. I suspect that these league tables fail to tell the whole story of a hugely complex process. The whole notion of these top of the pops exercises seems, at best, a very crude measure of what happens at any place of work. For example, one figure looking at student satisfaction placed Cardiff only 0.2 points above the lowest scoring universities in this category. It just seems to me to reinforce the nonsense of so much of this number crunching.
In case anyone is interested the current assessment criteria include:
· Student satisfaction
· Research quality
· Student-staff ratio
· Services and facilities spend
· Entry standards
· Completion
· Good honours
· Graduate prospects

This is a slightly different list from those that were used to compile the 2007 table.

I guess what I’m left with is an unease about how readily we accept what we’re told. Anyone can pluck numbers at random out of thin air. Equally, not all processes can be reduced to a series of numbers, at least not at present. The results are far too crude to have any real meaning. Those universities that find themselves lower down the league table suffer financial hardship that makes reivestment difficult. Inevitably there must come a point where maintaining even the status quo is impossible. Such conditions are fertile ground for "more creative" data processing :frown:

As a matter of interest, to what extent do these league tables inform the decision-making of you younger folk out there? What are you looking for in a university? Does it meet your expectations on arrival? What are the things you wished you'd known before you got there?

[XRIMO]

The rankings of universities mean nothing to me. I did my B.A. at the University of New Brunswick (UNB) because I thought they had a good film program. Alas, I decided to switch from film into classics, thus when it came time to do my M.A., I decided to go to the University of Western Ontario (UWO). I chose UWO because the classics program they had, not because of its ranking.

I really enjoyed UNB when I arrived there. I was always answering questions and received praise from my profs. It was so weird at first because I expected it to be so much different. I was expecting nothing but geniuses, but most of the students in their first year were clueless.

My time at UNB will always be memorable.
For some reason or other, my time at UWO has been much less pleasant. Perhaps because I focused solely on work now and not so much of the interaction with my fellow students. I have figured out that I need to do something different once I return from my leave-of-absence. So far, I haven't been too impressed with UWO even though it is one of the top ranking universities in Canada.

I don't think there is really anything I wished I knew before going to UNB or UWO.

Anyway thats my info on the two universities I have attended in Canada.

[Marky]

Ok you searched the university as a whole, But cardiff university like every other is made up of different schools, and I was based upon a school, and what we got told there. So for that its unfair to quote.

Also I dont appreciate being quoted. Nothing personal but yeh, In future please dont quote upon me, in a post of this context.

Where universities rank is important, but at the end of the day its how the student copes, and not how much money the university has. Everything is put into tables these days so meh. Its how life is.

University is individual choice at the end of the day, and without this post going into another education rant like it did with enigma, I feel its best not to over look onto this thread.

Education is available, and put onto a league table like EVERYTHING else. Its up to the person not the tables. Someone fails, they cant blame the university, its how hard they work. Why read more into a subject which occurs with everything? (League tables). People have freedom of choice, so its up to them.

I chose upon myself, what did I want. Just like most people. No biggy. Yes I regret my choice but hey ho, I made my choice im going to stick to it. So yeh.

We dont get told enough about university life, and the courses and that. So wish I knew more about that, but as ive stated before on this subject people generally know.

[marshlander]

The rankings of universities mean nothing to me.
I have a feeling that the same is probably true for most people. Does the Canadian Government impose an inspection regime and publish the results in league tables as in the UK?

It was so weird at first because I expected it to be so much different. I was expecting nothing but geniuses, but most of the students in their first year were clueless.
The joy of all being in the same boat :smile:

... So far, I haven't been too impressed with UWO even though it is one of the top ranking universities in Canada.
Sorry to hear that. I wasn't clear from your message, did the course, once you started it, not meet your expectations or was it more to do with the fact that, being older (and presumably with other already experienced students?) you were ready to apply yourself more fully to the work with some of the social activities being less of a priority? Perhaps it was something to do with the masters degree involving much more individual study?

[marshlander]

I have responded to post #3 privately, for the moment. With any luck normal discussion can resume as soon as possible :smile: .

For information, this is a continuation of a discussion that arose out of posts #54 and #55 in newc student 18's thread, "Belated Hello". I moved my questions here as a courtesy to John (aka newc student 18) so as not to further hijack his self-introduction.

I hope there are enough open questions to stimulate some thoughts?

[newc_student_18]

I moved my questions here as a courtesy to John (aka newc student 18) so as not to further hijack his self-introduction.


Lol thanks

just as a little contribution, the rankings or whatever of the universities mean nothing to me, at the end of the day i think (and this is from personal experience) the whole university experience is, like it or not, about so much more than the course you choose, it's about the social development too i think.
Also i know from my friends who are at "better" universities than mine that they don't like it so much because while the intelligence of the lecturers etc is clearly far superior, they have to spend so much time doing their own research work, to keep their academic standing at it's pinnacle that the students suffer as a result, not getting a lot of time with lecturers/teaching staff and what have you. whereas in a lower ranking university, the lecturers have less to prove and so are able to spend more time actually teaching the students, so the quality of teaching does in many cases seem to be better.

Of course it could be hard to explain that to a prospective employer when comparing degress from oxford and teesside for example (by the way that is in NO way a degrading comment to Teesside university, i want to make that very clear :biggrin:)

[wouldlikemuscle]

Likewise with me... Uni rankings meant nothing to me! I didn't even look at the rankings when I made my choices... couldn't really care less about em. (on a side note.. why do Americans say I could care less... its wrong!)

I just looked for it to be an interesting course... also got to see the accommodation and other facilities like the gym and bar etc.

I guess it met my expectations... obviously there are some things I thought were greater and some less than my expectations... but overall it evened out.

What I wish I knew beforehand... Dunno really!!



Then as far as employment goes... well I got the first job I applied for fine with my degree... and that was a stepping stone to going elsewhere with better pay.

[XRIMO]

Does the Canadian Government impose an inspection regime and publish the results in league tables as in the UK?

I'm not sure if its government sanctioned, but MacLeans magazine usually does a ranking of the universities in Canada.

Sorry to hear that. I wasn't clear from your message, did the course, once you started it, not meet your expectations or was it more to do with the fact that, being older (and presumably with other already experienced students?) you were ready to apply yourself more fully to the work with some of the social activities being less of a priority? Perhaps it was something to do with the masters degree involving much more individual study?

Well, at the end of my B.A., I felt as if a masters would be a drop in the bucket, but once I arrived into the program, I ended up working endlessly. I don't think you or princealbertofb were around for my breakdown in October/November (in the Sleep Deprivation thread). Anyway, I have had so much time to myself while I have been on my leave that I am wondering if I am doing what I really want. All I want is to be a teacher and a writer. I would be happy if I could be those two things.

I have recently been thinking of trying to finish my M.A. in Classical Studies, and then do a B.Ed. I think I could manage that instead of going on and doing a PhD. Hopefully, it will all work out.

[marshlander]

Lol thanks

just as a little contribution, ....they have to spend so much time doing their own research work, to keep their academic standing at it's pinnacle that the students suffer as a result, not getting a lot of time with lecturers/teaching staff and what have you. whereas in a lower ranking university, the lecturers have less to prove and so are able to spend more time actually teaching the students, so the quality of teaching does in many cases seem to be better.

Of course it could be hard to explain that to a prospective employer when comparing degress from oxford and teesside for example (by the way that is in NO way a degrading comment to Teesside university, i want to make that very clear :biggrin:)

Thanks for that! I feel enlightened :smile:

What you describe as the whole university experience is exactly the kind of thing that cannot be bottled and numbered. The last time I looked at a uni prospectus it did try to give a bit of a flavour of the fuller experience.

I must say I hadn't given much thought to the problem of being taught by academics with publishers on their backs. I have a friend who teaches at a university and she is good, but she is always nearly missing a publication deadline. It's a real juggling act. Any university is always pleased to accept any kudos from well received works written by their own staff, but I suppose there is a trade-off :frown: I did meet someone recently who was taught by Professor Tolkien at Oxford. She said he lectured in the quietest of voices with his back to the students in the hope that they would give up and go away. The majority did, apparently. I guess the one ring to rule them all was more of a problem than even Frodo discovered.

As for the comparison by employers, that's a tough one. They know what they want in their workforce and often don't like it when they get it. Although the demand for graduates has increased has the need?

[marshlander]

Likewise with me... but overall it evened out. ... well I got the first job I applied for fine with my degree... and that was a stepping stone to going elsewhere with better pay.
A satisfied customer then?

[marshlander]

I'm not sure if its government sanctioned, but MacLeans magazine usually does a ranking of the universities in Canada.
It looks as though they take at least some of their data from a US assessment tool, the National Survey of Student Engagement (NSSE or Nessie!) and the Canadian Undergraduate Survey Consortium.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I think there are many British institutions that would welcome a more organic student-focussed operation such as this rather than the top down UK model. It doesn't look as though there is a direct correlation with funding. Are Canadian universities self-financing? I know that across the border, universities seem to charge for everything including charging candidates a massive sum of money just for reading their applications :frown:

... I don't think you or princealbertofb were around for my breakdown in October/November (in the Sleep Deprivation thread). It was one of the threads I read back on when I was trying to get a feel for the site. So pleased things began to get better for you.


I have recently been thinking of trying to finish my M.A. in Classical Studies, and then do a B.Ed. I think I could manage that instead of going on and doing a PhD. Hopefully, it will all work out.
The very best of luck to you. You can always study for a PhD later. Save your energy for your teaching, you'll need it all!

[wouldlikemuscle]

A satisfied customer then?

Indeed... quite honestly, I'd love to relive those 3 years of my life!

[studded_belt]

I think wat is important to understand here that league tables as such mean nothing, and they do not rly interfere with the delivery of Uni's... and we must also take into account the fact tht sum unis specialise and are better at delivering certain subjects... It was intersting to see my university at Number 95 in the ranking, which was also surprising as it didnt hav a big ranking in the student satisfaction section either as my University's students uniob has won students union award of the year 2yrs in a row, which no other uni in England has done... Back to this specialising stuff well my university for example is one of the top universities in the uk for its art, graphics and computer game design subjects, Loughbrough university also has very good (world class actually) sporting facilities so we must all take these statistics with a pinch of salt and realise tht yest we do live in a very meritocratic society where things are judged and judged unfairly and these statisics are nt rly surprising to me on the whole as they are compiled by the typical southern, white, upper-class, conservative male

[marshlander]

... so we must all take these statistics with a pinch of salt and realise tht yest we do live in a very meritocratic society where things are judged and judged unfairly and these statisics are nt rly surprising to me on the whole as they are compiled by the typical southern, white, upper-class, conservative male
Really? For many years now, schools have had to work out their own statistics as part of a self-evaluation routine. I wouldn't be surprised that universities were compelled to do something similar. The compilation is generally done by office staff who are unlikely to fit your profile. As regards "upper-class" though ... Maybe universities are different, but I have worked in schools that actually lie within the grounds owned by the queen and have yet to meet anyone remotely upper-class on the premises ... although, come to think of it, one of the schools caused a bit of a hoohah when they decided to get rid of a large, ugly cabinet filled with bits of tat donated by a former queen. The (ahem) exhibits were all things given to the royals on foreign trips that she didn't want or know what to do with. Aristotat ...?

But, back on topic, why do we just accept the unfairness of the meritocratic system you mention?

[princealbertofb]

That last question lacks a word or two, doesn't it?