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Complicated Situation
#11
I hate drama as well, but his problem is more severe than anything else I've ever encountered and it really fucking terrifies me. I'm always scared shitless of causing other people any kind of pain and I feel like no matter what I decide to do here he's going to suffer because of me.

I just have to point out that I NEVER ever pressured him into coming out. When we first met I told him "Us being together in the future will only be possible if you come out. I'd never pressure you into doing it, but that's a very basic thing I need in a relationship". As I said before, me coming off as a heartless ice queen in the beginning was just a sad side-effect of me trying to cut to the chase as efficiently as possible.
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#12
dfiant1 Wrote:Well, it may change my opnion a little, but I still think it is shallow to let a minor detail like being out or not influence how you love someone.

I thought love knew no bounds and by putting restrictions and conditions on love you are only limiting your own happiness.

I'm just saying.

I can see where you're coming from but him being closeted... it just doesn't work. We can only meet in the library or outside where it's freezing because he's afraid of being discovered. He pushes me away whenever somebody he knows happens to come along. I've had to escape from his apartment barely dressed once when his mother came home and he forced me out in panic. If his homophobic friends harrassed me verbally he'd probably be unable to help me out of fear of blowing his cover.

I love him but I don't have the emotional energy to hide my love from literally everyone except a few of my friends and my family.
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#13
Abuse. As a survivor of abuse I empathize with his plight. I'm going to try to convey to you where he is and what things are like from his perspective.

Abuse is Torture. Victims of Torture and/or Abuse never get over it.

Never.

We learn how to cope, we learn how to fake a smile, and pretend that everything is ok. But the harsh brutal reality is that abuse/torture victims live with that event(s) for all of their days. We never recover, we don't 'get over it' we are in fact severely affected by the trauma in every aspect of our lives.

Oh this isn't to say we do not desire to be normal, that we don't desperately wish and pray and hope that we can one day live our life free of that trauma. All the wanting and wishing in the world does not undo the harm once harm is done.

No you can't see the connection because no one held you down and raped you, or did whatever happened to him. You can't possibly understand what it is to be him.

Even if he goes in for professional help, he won't be 'cured' of this. He may learn how to live a life, may learn how to ignore flashbacks and conquer the million and one minor barriers to happiness he will encounter due to his torture, but he will never actually 'get over' it.

Understand we live in a society where one of the biggest 'theories' about homosexuality is that all homosexuals were abused and 'made' gay by that abuse.

Every-time he reads that or hears is offered as a way to justify homophobia, or to take away the rights of LGBT, he is reminded that he was abused - might actually relive the event, might end up having nightmares that night of the event(s) he lived through.

So he comes out, suddenly he will be told over and over and over again that clearly he was 'abused' as a kid which made him gay. And since he was abused, yeah he will never - NEVER - be certain that he was born gay.

I still struggle with 'Was I born Gay, or was I made gay?' - I don't know, and there is no biological test (thus far) that I can have done that will give me a solid answer. I have personally learned how to ignore the question most days, and not let it bother me. But then its around 24 years since I came out of the closet I have had time to learn how to deal with and cope with the inner debate, the fears and worries that the question brings to mind. Trust me, when you are left wondering if you are honestly gay, or if you are just insane and this is your insanity, it does a number on all aspects of your life.

He most likely honestly believed/believes that love would carry him through the trauma of coming out, and he most likely spins on that far more than you can ever imagine. He might actually desperately hope that your love will 'fix' him. Many survivors of abuse seek a White Knight, hope and pray that if they find the right mate that their troubles will vanish and they will find normalcy and happiness.

You can ask several of my past partners what it is I expected from them. I expected their love to 'fix' me. Love never did, although they most likely wanted it to. Again, I have a couple decades of experience and living to give me a much more realistic approach to love and life. Live and learn.

Your setting a deadline on coming out is making his fear/stress over it far worse than it needs to be.

As for not putting pressure on him, well actually you placed a huge heap of pressure on him, you told him you refuse to love him unless he comes out.

And you are being sadistic, pushing and pushing and reminding him 'I will reject your fucking ass if you don't come out of the closet.' Yeah I know you didn't say it that way, but no doubt this is what he actually hears when you say whatever it is you say, no matter how nicely you say it.

Yeah I know, you think made it clear - sorry no you didn't. You can't make it clear to him. He will never - EVER - see the world like you do. Sorry. He can't. This isn't an unwillingness, this is an inability. Its like demanding a blind man to see the rainbow - he can't, no matter how much he may desire it, he is unable.

I have no idea how dependent he is on his family at this time. If he relies on them for anything, tuition for college/university, rent money, food money, he has to appease his family.

I have no idea how old he is at this time. If he is in his early 20's, give it about a decade. Yeah it takes a bit of time.

I can tell you this much, if he can break away from dependency upon his family, it will be much easier for him to come to terms with his homosexuality and eventually he will make the phone call and tell his family 'I'm gay'.

I have no idea what other harshness he has experienced from his family. So I can't give you an estimated date of arrival on the day when he will reach the point where he wants to tell everyone. It depends on what that harshness is exactly and how much it has affected him.

There is no doubt a clear and deep willingness and desire to give you what you want. Just like the blind man who desires to see the rainbow. I just don't think that at this time he is able to do this.


Eventually he will come out. When? I don't know, maybe tomorrow, maybe a decade from now.

Your choices are actually very simple here.

1. You can go on and try romance and be a supporter of him, and maybe introduce him to LGBT 'strangers' people who do not know the people he knows and is terrified will find out and put him in a position where he can 'safely' come out to someone just so he can have a couple three good experiences to bolster his confidence.

You can learn patience and hope that that patience gives him strength. It might. As long as you are not setting deadlines and threatening to not love him if he doesn't comply, perhaps the sting of the fear will lessen.

2. Dump him now.


I fear you ain't going to get what you want immediately. Clearly he can't (not unwilling, but is unable) to give you what you want.

You either accept this now, and learn patience and chuck this 'I must have', or you dump him and make it a very clean, quick break. There is no 'nice' way to force him to come out, and the longer you prolong this, the more damage you are doing.
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#14
Anonymous Wrote:I can see where you're coming from but him being closeted... it just doesn't work. We can only meet in the library or outside where it's freezing because he's afraid of being discovered. He pushes me away whenever somebody he knows happens to come along. I've had to escape from his apartment barely dressed once when his mother came home and he forced me out in panic. If his homophobic friends harrassed me verbally he'd probably be unable to help me out of fear of blowing his cover.

I love him but I don't have the emotional energy to hide my love from literally everyone except a few of my friends and my family.

I still think you are focusing too much on yourself and not enough on him.

3 months isn't a long time, another 3 months won't be a long time, another 12 months is not a long time.

He is more scared than you and you are telling me you are scared?

You ever heard of stage fright? you put pressure on someone to perform, when it comes to the crunch they can't perform...you are doing this.

People come out when they feel loved, safe, wanted, protected yet your frustration of him being in the closet is ruining your opportunity to be the person to offer him this?
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#15
I'm not going to address the pressure aspects, as plenty of others have already. But what I'd point out is that if this is such a deal breaker for you perhaps it was a bad idea to start in on this relationship in the first place.

And honestly, I can fully understand why it's a deal breaker. I don't draw the line as a complete black and white myself, but I do expect to have a comfort zone where we can be together as a couple without ever having to sneak in and out of windows and shit. If there's no chance of a significant life together because his real life excludes me, I will steer clear.
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#16
dfiant1 Wrote:Well, it may change my opnion a little, but I still think it is shallow to let a minor detail like being out or not influence how you love someone..
This.^


Well...i can't really blame you OP since most guys who are out want their partners to be out as well so that relationship would be equal and balanced.... But.. Like what dfiant said, is it really a big deal to you?

Maybe ask yourself..why do you want him to be out...what are the perks? Would it make a big difference? Would it improve the relationship??

And on the other side...what are the effects if he would just remain in the closet? He has his personal reasons as well and it might affect his well-being...

Weigh both sides and you'll find out if it's really that significant or a major thing for the relationship to work or just a minor thing you can just ignore for the mean time.
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#17
Yes, the neverending unbalance of the out/not out couple..

well, if you have a policy of not dating anyone who's not out, then stick by it and don't date anyone closeted.

the minute you agree to see someone who is, you can't place an ultimatum "I'll dump you in "x" days if you haven't come out by then"

it's not how it works...

if you are up for the task, you can support your partner into developing the confidence to come out instead of demanding it to happen out of thin air..

now, that said, if he has confided in you and he seems to think that means something in order to say "how come you would leave me after all I've told you",than he seems to be involved deeper in this relationship..

not that is any good to guilt trip someone, but it's you who have to make a decision:

leave him, and leave him now,and be clear: " I'm sorry I don't date closeted folks" and if you will you can try helping him out as a friend

or help him to come out (drop the ultimatums, that's selfish) so you can both be in better shape as a couple..
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#18
southbiochem Wrote:Yes, the neverending unbalance of the out/not out couple..

well, if you have a policy of not dating anyone who's not out, then stick by it and don't date anyone closeted.

the minute you agree to see someone who is, you can't place an ultimatum "I'll dump you in "x" days if you haven't come out by then"

it's not how it works...

if you are up for the task, you can support your partner into developing the confidence to come out instead of demanding it to happen out of thin air..

now, that said, if he has confided in you and he seems to think that means something in order to say "how come you would leave me after all I've told you",than he seems to be involved deeper in this relationship..

not that is any good to guilt trip someone, but it's you who have to make a decision:

leave him, and leave him now,and be clear: " I'm sorry I don't date closeted folks" and if you will you can try helping him out as a friend

or help him to come out (drop the ultimatums, that's selfish) so you can both be in better shape as a couple..

...

I'm just reposting this because it deserves to be reposted. And now I'm going to say basically what SBC and everyone else has said...

If someone forced me to come out of the closet (when I was in one) before I was personally ready so that they wouldn't leave me, I would probably resent them for a very long time. It's not a nice thing to do.

That being said, I can sympathize with OP's dilemma. Your situation is tough, no doubt about it, and I don't doubt your sincerity, nor your empathy (love?) for your boyfriend... but you chose to be in a relationship with someone who's in the closet and now you have to decide whether you want to stick around. What you don't get to do (or shouldn't, at least) is start trying fit that person to your will or your liking by making him do things he's doesn't want to do, regardless whether you think it's in his best interest, or simply preferable to your standards.

If you do decide that you cannot bear to stick with him while he struggles through this plight of his, then I hope that when you leave you drop the ultimatums completely. No "I'm leaving.... but I'll give you one more chance to come out so I can keep loving you... huh? HUH?"

Just... don't do that. It's cruel. Just go.

Or not!
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#19
Ok, REALITY CHECK HERE FOLKS! The "closeted" guy is very COMFORTABLE LIVING A LIE! Not judging, he's safe inside that closet and any threat to that safety will be treated AS A THREAT - that's why he lashed out at you when you told him you were not going to be in a committed LTR with someone in the closet.

To me, the "quick subject switch" of "i was raped" may or may NOT be the truth. I'm just saying, he KNEW all along he wasn't going to come out and he needed a reason to both change the subject and leverage more time with you - and delay coming out.

My gut tells me he was NEVER raped (sorry folks, IF he was raped, this would have come out during their quiet times together - NOT when he was faced with having to explain why he COULDN'T COME OUT) and he's using that fib to pressure YOU to stay with him. I'll go one step further, i'll bet if you told him that you are NOW broken up and just friends - that he'll make some veiled threat to kill himself or act out on it to get your further attention.

Yes, he needs some professional counseling - mostly on coming to terms with his sexuality - but also on how he processes his fear and lies.

This may require you to literally make a HARD BREAK. This could REALLY blow up into serious drama. Consider changing your phone number, cut off social media, etc. CLEAN BREAK!
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#20
You abandoned your principles to embark on a relationship, then told him you would have to stick to your principles if you two were to be together? This entire situation is of your creation and stems from a serious lapse of logic. I don't mean to sound harsh, but clearly this guy is struggling and has difficulties and you're not only sending mixed signals, even if you don't realize it, but you're also being unfair to him by asserting your commitment to his well-being while simultaneously saying you can't give him everything he wants. The way I see it, you knew what you were getting yourself into regardless of what he promised you, and the fact that it's only been a few months and you're asking him to stick his neck out like that is really selfish. If you cared for him as much as you claim, I doubt you'd lack a basic level of understanding and acceptance of his feelings.
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