Love the sinner hate the sin

[laidbackscot]

You're totally right. And I understood then and now the sentiment.

What I didn't like was being made to feel somehow I was sinful in terms of being gay and made to feel others were "normal". Especially since I knew some of the shenanigans people got up to behind closed doors.

Maybe hypocrisy is the wrong word, probably me being emotive because I find religion in general filled with hypocrisy. Insulting is maybe s better way to put it.

[LJay]

I knew a guy who had a version of this phrase and had a way of being so pompous when he said it that I always wanted to slap him. More than the language it is the judgment of it that offends me. Despite the dodgy phrasing, there is a snarky disdain that cannot be disguised.

[jaxc]

Can i love the stupid but hate the stupidity? :biggrin:

[Steve]

Asshole hypocrites - neither the actions nor the actors are sinful! They only look for excuses to continue depriving us of equal rights and societal approval.

Too true. I knew I liked your style Bhp.

Love me = love everything about me, everything I do, everything I have

You know I love ya BlueStar, but if you take a dump in my Cheerio's I'm not going to like everything about you!

What Ray was talking about is this.

I've only had THAT line said to my face three times. The last was in the BAD early snow storm last year we had in early October (more than 3 ft of heavy wet snow in one afternoon) In the middle of the storm, headed to work before they closed the interstate, I stopped to help a car from from Idaho get back on the road. While I was changing a tire for a car full of church ladies one of them was standing there telling me about the big church convention they were coming from and how they were changing their ministry towards gays to be HTSLTS. She wont forget she said that or what I said back. The G rated version of what I said is that a morbidly obese female dog did not have the intelligence to say a single word to me about anything involving oral or anal sex unless she was asking permission to suck me or bend over to get fucked in the butt.

I left and went on to work with her and her prayer amazons frosting up the windows talking to jesus. I hope he came and changed the tire for them.

Don't hold back V. Tell us how you really feel.

I don't think it's necessarily hypocrisy. I'm not in any sense religious so my word might not be the best source on this but, as I understand it, in Christianity everyone is a sinner deep down. In saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" the speaker can simply be expressing that he or she is the same as the person he or she is addressing. It serves to separate the person from his or her actions and allows the person to be welcomed to the religious community in spite of any sinful deeds he or she may have done. There is nothing inherently contradictory about this.

It's good reasoning Aike, it is exactly what the church will tell you. Love humanity not the sins of humanity. Except that religion doesn't make exceptions for people who can't, or won't use deductive logic. All the "sheep" are thinking is that even though we are second class citizens, we should still be treated as people. And even that message gets muddled. It boils down to people willfully misinterpreting intent. It is a way for those who believe they are "following god's word" to smile and have something (they believe) is clever to say to our faces, and still hate our guts. It perpetuates hate, even if it wasn't intended to.

And its still just a different version of Separate but not Equal. We love you, in spite of what you do.
_______________________________

Now JisthenewK,

I think what nearly any church says is reduced to hate, whether the church intended it or not. Further, I believe the church hierarchy knows full well that most people won't be saavy enough to separate intent and result. It is too easy for many people who freely give away their ability to reason for themselves to lose perspective and become radically religious. If people start to lose that much frame of reference, everyone who doesn't view life in exactly the same manner is an abomination. There aren't many religions that don't have a splinter sect of radically religious people. To me, it says something about religion that in (I'll write almost, but I can't think of any that don't) almost every case a significant number of members feel that what they believe in is perfect and no one must disagree with them. That they cannot see life in any way other than what they believe it to be. It's limiting. And I think those in power like that. It's a lovely way to herd the sheep to do their bidding. Research the Borgias family, of Vatican infamy, then tell me about how the church has nothing to do with politics, governments, power, war, etc.
Religion is a great tool for the rich and powerful. The ends justify the means...

One of the very worst things someone can say to me is "I'll pray for you." Essentially its a great way to do absolutely nothing for someone and not feel the least bit guilty about it..

[ETOTE]

I would ask what their definition of "love" is.

[Bhp91126]

I don't think it's necessarily hypocrisy. I'm not in any sense religious so my word might not be the best source on this but, as I understand it, in Christianity everyone is a sinner deep down. In saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" the speaker can simply be expressing that he or she is the same as the person he or she is addressing. It serves to separate the person from his or her actions and allows the person to be welcomed to the religious community in spite of any sinful deeds he or she may have done. There is nothing inherently contradictory about this.

As long as those 'sinful' deeds exclude gay sex and sex outside of marriage for gay people, your understanding could indeed be welcoming. Of course, none of those blathering hypocrites of the religious wrong in the US would ever think of that.

[Bhp91126]

PS it's really weird to talk about religious stuff while my status is "Godlike"

[jasonkirk]

What do you think about this phrase when it comes to people who claim not to be homophobic? I think some people are raised in a religious home, but want to be friends with everyone they can, just are misguided in homosexuality and what it really is. Others use it as an excuse when they really do hate gays and want to take our rights away. What do you think?

i totally agree with you

[Cuddly]

"Just to make this clear, Jesus sent a homosexual to help you out here.... "

I gotta remember that!

Homosexuality isn't a sin. It's just crazy to think so! It's not like as if you're molesting a grown man who could probably kill you with one hand tied behind his back, you're giving profound happiness to another homosexual man. Both parties thoroughly enjoying the experience. It's loving thy neighbour in its purest form - just like heterosexual sex!
It's just love man! There's nothing wrong with (consensual) love!

[Steve]

I would ask what their definition of "love" is.

Call me cynical, but the religion's definition of love is whatever suits their needs. The phrase "god fearing" is telling in this regard. God loves everyone and forgives people their sins, unless one disregards the teaching of the church, that is. At that point, church members may still tell you that god loves and forgives your sins, but usually it is said in a desperate sort of bid to sway the sinner to change their ways and join the church. If you don't change your ways the sinner is judged and sent to hell, or purgatory, a mythic afterlife to burn forever. God fearing folk are referred to as good and moral people who follow the word of god. They fear because they are aware of the punishment.

The religious definition of love, no matter how often believers spout the sanctioned lines of that have been repeated to them throughout christian time, is conditional. God loves you until you either displease him, or you disregard his teachings, at which point you are sent to hell. God may still love those in hell, but when one's soul is burning for eternity I would ask what good that sentiment is?

These are numerous accounts of people displeasing god. Genesis 19:26, when Lot's wife looked back and was turned into a pillar of salt. How ticked off must god have been to take someone's life so easily because they defied him and did what is a very normal human reaction: Look back upon the life you once knew, whether remembering the good or bad. That's all it took, looking back longingly. Boom! You're SOL! One pillar of salt coming right up. I hope he made hot buttered popcorn nearby. God loves you unconditionally, until you piss him off. What kind of f*cked up reasoning is that?

The 40 days and 40 nights of flood causing rain, which somewhat level headed believers call a myth designed to teach, is another example of god's displeasure with everything except a god fearing man and his lovely wife. And all the animal, insects, and anything else thing he felt needed to be saved. The rest were punished, cleansed from his creation.

The inference is to fear god and rightly so, because there are consequences when one does not follow god's word. The unconditional love religion preaches about is conveniently shrouded by ignoring the conditions that must be met to guarantee that love.