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Choose Your Favorite Pro-War Candidate - by John Pilger
#21
at least not civilian targets as clinton did
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#22
HollandofFrance Wrote:the fact that some candidates will speak out against Clinton war mongering on Serbs and others will enthusiastically agree with him , causes me to vote for a peace candidate

some say he did it to get the headlines off monica lewisky

I met many people, refugees, who fled from Serbian war crimes. If there is fault with what the international community does in such actions, it is that they are not consistent. . . ignoring war crimes in Rwanda and assisting in Libya and Bosnia.

Forgive me for being forward, Holland. I was just wondering where you are from. It does not seem like you are a native speaker of English by some phrases you use.
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#23
HollandofFrance Wrote:because im a celtic man - Cornish and welsh -i dont know -maybe part Irish
do the welsh hate him? i bet they do-the welsh hate everyone
he was a prick -he burnt the irish harps i think and slaughtered the irish
queen Elizabeth the first did the same -she was creepy
mary queen of Scots sucks as well
but im not Catholic
cromwell? wasnt he a damn war monger?i think he was
he was a staid Puritan prick
doubt if he was gay
igive me king edward the 2nd

Now do you feel better after that outburst...! Mary Queen of Scots was reared in France and so thought like a French woman, her cousin Elizabeth I no doubt was a brilliant monarch considering she ruled in a male patriarchal England. No Cromwell did not burn the Irish harp unless one was flying around when he was in charge of the campaign in Ireland..! For me and many English people Cromwell will always be a great leader unless you're saying you hate the English as well??
[SIZE="3"][COLOR="Green"]Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”

Oscar Wilde[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Respect
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#24
Person66 Wrote:As an American, I don't understand everything you're talking about, but from what I learned in High School European History: Oliver Cromwell was a religious fanatic who (as OrphsnPip mentions above) shut down the theatres and banned things like celebrating Christmas, until the British people hah had enough. He's hardy a national fugue to revere. Correct me if I'm wrong, as in the U.S. we receive ten times the Amount of American History, as world history, and European history has been further marginalized as schools don't want to seem too "Euro-Cenrtic" (AKA: white).

Cromwell's legacy is complicated.

As a military commander, he was accused even in his own time of using excessive force against the Royalist in Scotland, and against the Catholics in Ireland. He participated in mass slaughters of civilians at a time when that had gone out of style in European warfare.

As a politician, he was fiercely anti-Catholic and his Puritan values resulted in a number of constraints on the lives of the British, based on the idea that the state should be the moral guardian of the people.

However, he also lead the first republican government (in the sense of a government without monarchy) in England. He's a rags to riches story in a sense, since he rose from the middle class to the leader of the nation, largely on the back of his prowess as a military commander. He was a reformer of military strategy, and laid the groundwork for England's professional army. I think Cromwell stands in for the values of the revolution to begin with, which would be personal liberty against a tyrant, but he himself didn't really reflect those values too much in his later years.

Thomas Fairfax, the other prominent military figure of the civil war, had originally supported Cromwell, because he believed in the principles of the civil war. But he eventually withdrew from participation as Cromwell grew increasingly just as bad as what he replaced, specifically Fairfax objected to the execution of Charles and the pre-emptive invasion of Scotland. Milton also grew largely contemptuous of the Cromwell government. He was a contentious figure even for those who knew and worked with him.
When a subject is highly controversial — and any question about sex is that — one cannot hope to tell the truth. One can only show how one came to hold whatever opinion one does hold. One can only give one's audience the chance of drawing their own conclusions as they observe the limitations, the prejudices, the idiosyncrasies of the speaker.
- Virginia Woolf
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#25
OrphanPip Wrote:As a military commander, he was accused even in his own time of using excessive force against the Royalist in Scotland, and against the Catholics in Ireland.

Pip, you have a gift for understatement.


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Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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#26
i was born in usa
im american of English/Norman etc uk descent and part native American-do i type like a Indian?

Cromwell is from another age-to me he seems cruel as does Mary queen of Scots as does the french who slaughtered the french protestant Huguenots

i dont hate "the english"

are the english in usa the same as the ones in uk?

the people there are into the politics of 1650 england? why would they even know of this cromwell guy?
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#27
i get the impression many uk people are like"youd better like this or else"

even if im the only one to disagree, ill disagree i guess

you mean all english people love Cromwell?-to me he seems like a warmonger

im against capital punishment -most uk people want it ,yet government got rid of it -crimes rates there are high

Spanish people 80% voted no on it and crime rates are low

im swedish too

the normans are from Norway

does sweden or norway have the same type history of a cromwell doing these things?

but im american and not bristish and my ancestors came here about 360 years ago-im probably not leaving here

france or spain seems good
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#28
gee i hate to visit England and get in a barroom brawl over a dead Cromwell because i have a loud mouth -thanks for the tip
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#29
OrphanPip Wrote:Cromwell's legacy is complicated.

Milton also grew largely contemptuous of the Cromwell government.

I'm not sure of the purity of this statement. He, as far as I remember, supported Cromwell's rule until it, of course, ended, and things went south (not a bad pun, I'd say).
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#30
HollandofFrance Wrote:i dont hate "the english"

are the english in usa the same as the ones in uk?

I am sorry but you have entirely lost me there.

HollandofFrance Wrote:the people there are into the politics of 1650 england? why would they even know of this cromwell guy?

Alas, many would only vaguely know of Cromwell despite his importance to the history of the British Isles.


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Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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