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For the elder statesmen ;)
#11
What does acceptance mean in practice? Am I being non-accepting if my list of friends does not include any feminine gay guys?

Merry Christmas Everyone
Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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#12
What does acceptance mean in practice?

Well...only you could really answer that question for yourself as you have to be true to yourself. I can tell you what it means to me but not definitively as it changes and evolves frequently. I have to struggle with it constantly and that is a good thing IMO because it engages me to think and challenge myself and re evaluate my own POV. I believe in the principles of equality under the law.... and free speech ....(alot of other things as well but I will use these two principles)...and I often have to confront my own hypocrisy.

Do I accept Fred Phelps and his ilk? Hell No. Do I support his right to free speech and equality under the law? Yes...but barely....

Do I accept the Muslim religion or most religious doctrine? Hell No. Do I support their right to religious freedom and equality under the law? Yes...and No. In principle... Yes... but when their religious "freedom" includes murdering/oppressing/destroying other people in the name of God...or Allah...Hell No!

Am I being non-accepting if my list of friends does not include any feminine gay guys?

Not Necessarily...It depends on the situation. I would offer this...If you intentionally dismiss the possibility of friendship with a feminine gay man solely because he is feminine then yes...non accepting...in the same spirit where some straight people do not accept a friendship with a gay person just because they are gay...

If you truly do not like the INDIVIDUAL then it is quite different....maybe you have never met a feminine gay individual that you do like as an individual?


Merry Christmas Everyone

Merry Christmas to you
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#13
This is an interesting discussion. I find it sad that we can be as guilty of finding and making victims among our own as any other group, but I don't know whether the prejudice really is as strong as it sometimes seems. I attended boys-only schools as a teenager and anyone different was often ostracised and seemed to have few friends. Although I was more of a loner with just one or two special friends I was fortunate enough to be tolerated as a peripheral part of many groups too. I was often the first one to befriend new boys in school until they found their feet or gravitated towards particular groups. I just hated seeing anyone lost and lonely. The dynamic in an all-male school in those days was towards masculinity, so an extrovertly feminine boy was rare and he tended to have few other friends. This was also true of anyone non-Anglo/non-white. I have been pleased to have maintained some of those friendships to this day, many decades later.

Had I been one of the more extrovert types maybe I would have found my own path a little earlier than I did. I sometimes wish I were a little more flamboyant and I admire those who are able to stand out in a crowd, since I find being the centre of attention quite painful at times. For me, the outward expression is not what draws me to someone socially. It is far more about whether we have something to share or discuss. I never know whether that is the case until I can bring myself to engage in conversation. Outwardly, femme men and butch men have equally interesting potential for me as conversational partners, but I'm rarely aware of those characteristics when we are talking. It's much more about what they are thinking and what they say. That's why I like to go to the local gay pub every now and then.
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#14
Is it prejudiced to want a man to be a man?

It can be...first we need to define "man"...and that is a difficult one. The super butch males are sometimes as much in drag as the super feminine guys...is one more or less a "man" than the other? Do we have established criteria for what a man is emotionally? intellectually? spiritually? physically?...or is it all about image?

Sarah Palin and her ilk have recently been referring to their targets as needing to "man up".....her and her buddies definition of what "man up" means seems a bit elusive...or is it really quite clear? Wink

I have heard men...both straight and gay...criticize lesbians who are not feminine as well.... as though they are on some sort of menu...completely dehumanizing them. They are often referred to with much distaste as too "manly".

I think that alot of people both gay and straight who prefer that other people adhere to traditional male and female ROLES should consider this...if you insist that other people behave in a TRADITIONAL manner...and you are gay...you need to rethink this because if you have that POV you have to understand that the people who oppress you as a gay person use the same reasoning. You are a threat to their "traditional" comfort zone just for being who you are. If that kind of thinking has enhanced your own life...being the object of scorn...then by all means pass it along Wink

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Outwardly, femme men and butch men have equally interesting potential for me as conversational partners, but I'm rarely aware of those characteristics when we are talking. It's much more about what they are thinking and what they say.

That is a great way to sum it up for me as well marsh...I would add "spirit" to the list...I love a great spirit....and some of the greatest spirits I have met have just happened to be feminine men.
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#15
East Wrote:...I would add "spirit" to the list...I love a great spirit....and some of the greatest spirits I have met have just happened to be feminine men.
I have no argument with that at all. Good point Xyxthumbs
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#16
East Wrote:I think that alot of people both gay and straight who prefer that other people adhere to traditional male and female ROLES should consider this...if you insist that other people behave in a TRADITIONAL manner...and you are gay...you need to rethink this because if you have that POV you have to understand that the people who oppress you as a gay person use the same reasoning. You are a threat to their "traditional" comfort zone just for being who you are. If that kind of thinking has enhanced your own life...being the object of scorn...then by all means pass it along Wink

I prefer but I certainly don't insist.
Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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