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God does not hate gays!
#21
Hate itself is considered to be a sin, to harbor it against any child of God is an understatement of most every teaching. Those who say otherwise are only wielding religion to further their own political agenda, which is an affront to the otherwise peaceful and loving scripture in which they twist. These people are known as false prophets, and if they do not see the error of their ways, they lay in the same circumstances of condemnation as they attempt to point on to others.
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#22
I know this is posted from a website but I'm gonna chime in anyway! Wink

Quote:Question: "What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?"

Answer: All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.”

What about the people Christian missionaries couldn't reach? What about children who die before they can understand what religion even is? What about the people who lived before Christ, and even better, the people who existed before Yahweh was a glimmer in the ancient Hebrews' eyes? What about our evolutionary ancestors? And if Christianity fell out of favor and was abandoned, what would happen to the future humans? What about people who were born into different belief systems? It would be terribly hard to convert to the "true religion" if you believe wholeheartedly that you're already following it. All of these people are going to hell? This was the question that started me on the path of disbelief. Damning innocents to eternal torture just didn't seem right to me. And if I could be more compassionate and understanding than god, what kind of a god is he?

Quote:The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20)

I could just as easily say that Gaia manifests herself in nature and all you need to do to know she exists is to look around you. How does that bring about a revelation that she exists? All it shows me is that there is beauty in the world. It doesn't tell people how to live or who to worship.

Quote:The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23).

It isn't knowledge. You have to accept things on faith, and faith is not proof. No one could logically make the jump from looking at nature (or within themselves), to believing that there is a god and he so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for us -- not without having heard of the concept before. The author of this article is ignoring that.

Quote:If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

Absolute lie. People don't need a god to live a life of meaning and purpose. Life for me isn't miserable after religion. It is 5 times better. No longer is there an invisible being looking down on me, judging everything I do, say, or think. I am free to make mistakes without the feeling that the mouth of hell is opening up for me. And though I'd prefer not to make mistakes and try not to, I do sometimes. No one is perfect. But I am an awesome person, if I do say so myself. And I do, of course! :tongue:

Quote:Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.” This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

How do you seek something that you didn't know you were missing? How do you desire to know something, when you've never heard of its existence? That makes no sense. It's putting the cart before the horse. The filling before the pie crust. No one likes an upside down pie.

Quote:People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god” of their own creation.

What of Yahweh? What makes a person so certain that he is not a god of someone's own creation? He's less of a nature god than many pagan ones I've heard of....

Quote:It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them.

No, it is not foolish. It is important. An unfair god is not fit for worship. An unfair god is an imperfect god. This world is imperfect and equality will never exist because all of our experiences are so different. That chance circumstances would have an effect on whether or not someone is cast into an infinite hell, is infinitely cruel.

Quote:The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

You can't reject something that wasn't offered to you. I wonder if the author rejects the idea that there is a microscopic black hole in my closet that is only being stopped from sucking the entire planet into it because my Barbie doll collection is keeping it clogged? Little does he know, there is also a magical indigo dragon who created the black hole, and it has decided that those who don't look within themselves to see that he exists are going to be turned into Barbies when they die to make preparation for such a time when the black hole starts becoming unclogged. And the author should know this already... in his heart, of course. But chances are he's never even thought about it. Oh well. "Sucks" to be him (Get it? black hole? Oh, nevermind). Don't debate the fairness of the magical indigo dragon. He is beyond human understanding.

Quote:If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel.

That's a problem? *ba-dum tsh* Just playing. I don't mind if people proselytize. I do it well enough.

Quote:The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?

Because that's so much better than millions of people cast into hell simply because they didn't hear you say that Jesus exists! Why aren't you out devoting your entire life to make sure that you save everyone you can? Sleeping is 8 hours worth of souls that you aren't reaching!! It turns everything into a moral dilemma! I find it easy to circumvent by saying god is not unjust because he doesn't exist. And no one goes to hell because it also doesn't exist. And everyone is happy.

Except the magical indigo dragon.

I stayed away from this topic at first because even though I didn't agree with it, it was intended to be a positive message. I didn't wanna crash the party and be a Negative Nancy. But since fire and brimstone was added to the mix, I couldn't resist. I hope that doesn't bother anyone. If it makes any difference, I have nachos. I will share.
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#23
East Wrote:People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned

Poor Indians...we screwed them out of thier land and their culture...murdered them... and they were all condemned anyway! Serves them right then...Thank God the good Christians saved them! I guess their land was merely payment for saving their souls...eh?

I think I love you. Icon16

+1 Internets to you, sir.
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#24
SavedGay Wrote:Another incidence of an atheist that knows nothing about the truth. First, the Bible has never, NEVER been revised or updated. Do your research dude.

Second, Native Americans (this has been proven) knew about God before the white man ever set foot on their soil. They even knew the Hebrew name for God (YHWH). That can also be researched if you arent too lazy.

God has made Himself known to every man that ever lived. He put the knowledge in their "heart". Many, like you, have chosen to ignore that knowledge.

Sorry, I didnt use cute little sarcasm to make my point like you did. Just the truth.

You have got to be kidding..this crap on a gay board?

Jesus may love you but I think you are an ass.
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#25
What about the people Christian missionaries couldn't reach? What about children who die before they can understand what religion even is? What about the people who lived before Christ, and even better, the people who existed before Yahweh was a glimmer in the ancient Hebrews' eyes? What about our evolutionary ancestors? And if Christianity fell out of favor and was abandoned, what would happen to the future humans? What about people who were born into different belief systems? It would be terribly hard to convert to the "true religion" if you believe wholeheartedly that you're already following it. All of these people are going to hell? This was the question that started me on the path of disbelief. Damning innocents to eternal torture just didn't seem right to me. And if I could be more compassionate and understanding than god, what kind of a god is he?

...Perfectly Stated!BowBowBow
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#26
Another good point that I found religious people were never able to answer:

In order to "judge" someone, they had to, at some point, make a decision on which you judge them. How can god judge me in this life and send me to hell when I NEVER had the choice to be born???
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#27
Wow the things I've been missing while being swamped. How someone can think the Bible was never updated or changed when it's been through how many language translations is beyond me. It's not just a matter of if you've heard about the Gospel though. It's a matter of knowing that there are those with different views that volunteer, treat people with respect, etc. I cannot fathom the idea that these people would go to hell for not believing and an a random guy that's sinned greatly that comes on here spouting his judgments will go to heaven because he does believe. Perhaps he will if heaven does exist and he has truly been repetent, but I've seen far too many hypocrites to think that God puts more stock in the blind faith of people than he does in the kindness of their hearts.
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#28
SavedGay Wrote:Another incidence of an atheist that knows nothing about the truth. First, the Bible has never, NEVER been revised or updated. Do your research dude.

The Bible is a compilation of texts, actually. Not a single book but many. The Bible, as a compilation, has been revised -- books have been included and not included as the religion has "evolved." This is why Catholics have Maccabees (along with quite a few other books) and protestants are more like "Is that bee-shaped macaroni and cheese?" The Eastern Orthodox church includes even more books in their canon than the Catholics! The Bible has indeed been revised and updated, and if you are Protestant, it was mainly by your very group. Feel free to look it up.

Quote:Second, Native Americans (this has been proven) knew about God before the white man ever set foot on their soil. They even knew the Hebrew name for God (YHWH). That can also be researched if you arent too lazy.

I typed in "Native Americans" and "YHWH" into my college's research search engine and got absolutely no hits that mentioned anything like this. The only thing I get when searching in Google is blog posts and a few YouTube videos. So I looked at the names those claimed were Native American deities. I picked the Cherokee one to look up because my grandmother's father was full-blooded Cherokee (Eastern Band).

Excerpt from American Indian Quarterly Summer95, Vol. 19 Issue 3, p389, written by Alan Kilpatrick, an associate professor of American Indian Studies at San Diego State University in California:
Quote:The Cherokees were well acquainted with the mystical exhaltation associated with the worship of a Supreme Being. Even though J. T. Alexander, editor of Levi Gritt's 1951 Cherokee dictionary, renders the term, une:hlanv:hi, as "Lord"(1971:95), the word which most aptly describes this supernatual force derives its power from the verb root -ane:hl-"to provide" (Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick 1965:72-73). Thus, the Creator is most often referred to, in religious tracts as well as in the magico-medical spells, as une:hlanv':hi"the one who provides" (KiIpatrick and Kilpatrick 1964:27; Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick 1965b:34; Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick 1968:33; and Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick 1970: 102-105,116, and 118).(n4)

During the early part of the nineteenth century, the Cherokees used several other complimentary terms to denote the "Creator." One of these, utajah (translated by James Carey in 1798 as "The Great Man who dwells above"), defies modern exegesis (McLoughlin 1984:37). It may either be a dialectic corruption of utana ("big") or it may be an archaic Iroquoian term.(n5)

Thwaites, citing T. Say's "Vocabularies of Indian Languages," records another problematic phrase, ka-long-la-te-e geth-te-ra, which he translates as "the Great Spirit above" (Thwaites 1905:292). Transposed into a modern idiom, the first word becomes recognizable as galv':la?di'("above"). However, geth-te-ra remains something of an anamoly.

Another synonymous term, which seems to have gained ascendency with the Cherokee translators of the Bible, is ugv ' wiyu:hi, which means "king, ruler, or chief of the people" (cf. Gallatin 1836:398). This word, which according to Fogelson (personal communication) is a Native invention, seems to have gained coinage during the eighteenth century, a period of enlivened diplomatic activity and treaty making for the eastern Cherokees. In 1730 the Englishman, Sir Alexander Cuming, engineered the conveyance of the honorific title of "emperor" upon the Cherokee warrior, Moytoy of Tellico. It is not recorded which Cherokee word was selected to celebrate Moytoy's exalted status. However, it is likely to have been the word under discussion.(n6)

No mention of anything even resembling YHWH. It's a nice story but I'd venture to guess that is all it is: a story.

Also, the indigenous peoples of America were not just one big group with similar beliefs, but quite a few different, varied cultures. Some believed in a monotheistic god... some didn't. So even if some deity names were similar (I did not bother checking on the others -- there's that laziness you were talking about!!), and even if those deity names WERE meant to be the Hebrew god, there are still many other tribes that lived and died without knowledge of him and according to your religion, will (or already have been) sent to hell.

Quote:God has made Himself known to every man that ever lived. He put the knowledge in their "heart". Many, like you, have chosen to ignore that knowledge.

I have never seen, heard, or felt god. This is my experience and other people can't really speak for that. You nor I can know East's experience either. It is arrogant to claim you do.

Quote:Sorry, I didnt use cute little sarcasm to make my point like you did. Just the truth.

No sarcasm here either (not that sarcasm is awful. I particularly enjoy reading it!). But what you used was not the truth. I'd like to say this: I don't doubt that you believed them and I'm not saying you're a liar. But I am saying they were baseless claims and mostly turned out to be false.
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#29
CellarDweller Wrote:I never believed for an instant that God hated me.

Fred Phelps and his church (for lack of a better term) are very misguided and dumb people.

Alternate word: Cabal
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#30
Whilst SavedGuy and LavenderLad may have been exiled to the batcave, this discussion has still raised some interesting points.

Craig Wrote:Another good point that I found religious people were never able to answer: ... How can god judge me in this life and send me to hell when I NEVER had the choice to be born???
You'll probably find that any religion that has a point of view on this subject has got it covered somewhere. For example, during my Mormon upbringing I was taught that a third of the "host of heaven" (basically the pre-life spirits of everyone who has ever or who will ever live) were valiant in following Jesus during a war in heaven. They (we) were in favour of the plan to be sent to earth to receive a physical body, implying that we did give our consent to be born. The deeper doctrine even allows for kindred spirits to meet up again in this life. Of course it's all tosh and I shan't even go into the disgusting racist part of this doctrine that somehow gets left out of the discussion of the "Plan of Salvation" when the nice looking boys in dark suits come a-knocking on your door.

Zophia Wrote:... I typed in "Native Americans" and "YHWH" into my college's research search engine and got absolutely no hits that mentioned anything like this.
I was curious about this assertion too, so I did a bit of digging around online and could find no references to it except that I knew, though, that Mormons teach that Native Americans are the remnants of a family of refugees from Jerusalem, so naturally there would be linguistic connections. Unfortunately Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century despite his claims to be a prophet didn't actually foresee DNA testing, radiocarbon dating, and new discoveries in the fields of linguistics, Egyptology, archaeology, geology, or the impact that Darwin would have. Progress in many areas of knowledge has shown Mormon teachings to be the utter nonsense most people thought they were all along. It will have to be the subject of another thread the way they are steered away from finding out.[/quote]

Zophia Wrote:I have never seen, heard, or felt god. This is my experience and other people can't really speak for that. You nor I can know East's experience either. It is arrogant to claim you do.
Amen, sister Xyxthumbs Although, by that token I cannot know the experience of anyone who truly feels they have seen God. I can only question and if sensible, reasoned responses are not forthcoming, ultimately ridicule. I acknowledge that is a failing in me. :redface:

One of the best signs being held aloft at the recent march in London for a secular Europe bore the message

"You're never alone without an imaginary friend."

I thought it was funny anyway Wink
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