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How REAL are movies?
#21
I've got to admit to being a little confused as to the direction this discussion has taken. I read the whole thread through two or three times to try and work out why this has become some kind of cultural pissing contest.

If one country outstripping the creative achievements of another depends on the number of miles of shelf space in its libraries, the size of its opera houses or the relative rankings of its art galleries according to the number of visitors each draws (I've made an assumption that Wintereis's evidence refers to the rankings on the TripAdvisor website as reported, but not endorsed, by Reuters?) where is the evidence of quality those spaces contain? The international panel that judged the top twenty orchestras for Gramophone magazine would, I assume, have considered issues of quality, but the panel looked solely at modern romantic orchestras. This is not really sufficient evidence of dynamic creativity. In this report in The Times, the top five playing this repertoire were judged to be:

1 Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra
2 Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
3 Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
4 London Symphony Orchestra
5 Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

One could read those rankings in a very different light if taken at face value, but the Concertgebouw Orchestra's chief conductor is currently a Latvian while one has to go back to 1969 to find an American as the chief baton wielder at Chicago. I have no idea as to the staffing by nationality of any of these bands; I would imagine there is room for something of an international mix, but I'll assume that the bulk of he rank and file players in these orchestras is largely of nationals, as would seem to be the case with those British orchestras with which I am familiar through my work. However, what cannot be in doubt is that the repertoire, as well as the musical leadership, is largely international. I can't see that this provides us with sufficient evidence that "the U.S. has largely outstripped much of Europe's prowess when it comes to its own aesthetic and intellectual endeavors".

PA and I enjoyed the tremendous privilege of visiting New York's Museum of Modern Art a week or so ago. The works of art on display were by no means the exclusive achievements of one country's talent. This is surely true of galleries everywhere?

As the richest country in the world, a huge country in terms of landmass and with a population roughly five times the size of Great Britain, one would imagine that the U.S.A. should be able to buy up works of art from around the world as they appear on the international markets.

I don't have the time to research the facts concerning academic achievement, but I don't know how the evidence provided confirms the assertion, unless one accepts unquestioningly that more and bigger equals better?

I'm not disputing the fact that one nation or another may ultimately prove to have had more to offer in terms of cultural achievement, but I have yet to be convinced that any evidence provided for these assertions relate to criteria for assessment that are actually helpful :confused:


Albabonzai, I've only seen the film once (and PA will tell you I have a dreadful memory for the content of films), but from what I remember I saw little of merit in going into a hostile environment in such a devastatingly unprepared way. Curiosity is one thing, but stupidity quite another. I don't know to what extent the film was a true reflection of Chris McCandless' life, but I was angry with his behaviour and very upset by the relationship with his parents that drove him to such extreme behaviour. As a professional survivor I am sure you would never dream of undertaking such a venture in such a naive way. I was also irritated by the diary narrative at the end that appeared to seek to make his behaviour heroic. Sorry, I found that there was just something in this film that pressed a few buttons!
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#22
Really, you don't see how it arrived at that point? I think it went that direction when Fred started to criticize the places I wanted to travel to and the reasons I had for wanting to go to those places, as if I had no real understanding of what other areas of the world had to offer. Frankly, I found it condescending that Fred assumed that I should chose Rome or some other place I don’t wish to go to. I also notice you aren’t shy of entering your two cents on the issue.

Also, I never said “outstripping the creative achievements”. I said: “aesthetic and intellectual endeavors”. And, since we were talking about art museums and concert halls, it seems like a very normal progression to include other institutions that are responsible for the preservation of cultural and intellectual artifacts. Does it not? Also, it is natural that major art museums, concert halls, and libraries should be filled with a selection of international “creative achievements”. Lord knows that the Britihs Museum and the Louvre are . . . and mostly by theft. One would not be able to create great institutions along these lines without looking the whole world over.
Secondly, if you look at the information “at face value”, a population of 300,000,000 having seven out of twenty of the top ranked symphonies and four of the top ten ranked concert halls out of a population of 6,000,000,000 does speak for itself. Especially since these are largely separate from its own culture. The same goes for all the other institutions.
If you want information on University Rankings (and I said nothing about the size of the University on this matter) you can look at Times Higher Education World University Rankings and at the Academic Ranking of World Universities by Shanghai Jiao Tong University. Actually, you can look at just about any world ranking of Universities and they will all say Just About the same thing.
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#23
Oh crikey.!!! Now I'm lost again...:frown:

I don't mean to boast although lets be honest here... Does your country have Kookaburras sitting in Gum Tress, a great looking bridge that leads to an Opera House and a really, REALLY big rock in the middle... :confused:

Hmmm... I think not..! :tongue:

I think you guys need to book a Qantas Flight... ASAP..!!!

(Hmmm... I better get barbie ready... Wink )


Xtra





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#24
X-tra Wrote:Oh crikey.!!! Now I'm lost again...:frown:

I don't mean to boast although lets be honest here... Does your country have Kookaburras sitting in Gum Tress, a great looking bridge that leads to an Opera House and a really, REALLY big rock in the middle... :confused:

Hmmm... I think not..! :tongue:

I think you guys need to book a Qantas Flight... ASAP..!!!

(Hmmm... I better get barbie ready... Wink )


Xtra


Great idea xtra . . . I'll be on my way ASAP. I'm done arguing. Time to relax
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#25
Wintereis Wrote:Then, why would you assume that I was speaking from a perspective in which I had not been to a major gallery? You say that one would never get tired of seeing first rate galleries. Well, in my opinion, that is not true. Perhaps you should be more careful about how you state things in the future. Tone can be as much a part of meaning as the words themselves.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I admit I was assuming that, like myself and pretty much anyone I have ever met, that you had been to more non-first rate galleries than first-rate ones, I never assumed you had not been to a first-rate gallery. I am sorry but you are hearing a tone which I had no intention of giving and on re-reading my post cannot find, but I apologise if I inadvertently gave it. As for getting tired of first rate galleries we'll have to agree to differ on that.

Wintereis Wrote:Really, you don't see how it arrived at that point? I think it went that direction when Fred started to criticize the places I wanted to travel to and the reasons I had for wanting to go to those places, as if I had no real understanding of what other areas of the world had to offer. Frankly, I found it condescending that Fred assumed that I should chose Rome or some other place I don’t wish to go to.


I did feel that the reasons you had given for travel were overly focused on the wonders of nature, and was discussing those with you. I did not for a moment imagine that in such a short post you had given your full reasons for travel. I am very sorry if you feel upset by the idea that if travel destinations have become routine then perhaps you should broaden your horizons, its an idea that has guided my travels. I had no intention to imply that you had no understanding of the rest of the world.

I was agreeing with your point about ruins and explaining why I liked Rome. Although I would advise you (and many others) to visit it, I never assumed that you should actually visit it if the sound of it does not appeal. I am sure there are many places in the world that I currently think that I wouldn't like to visit, but would actually enjoy if I did, that's why I keep an ear open to persuasion on them.
Fred

Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.
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#26
Wintereis Wrote:Really, you don't see how it arrived at that point? I think it went that direction when Fred started to criticize the places I wanted to travel to and the reasons I had for wanting to go to those places, as if I had no real understanding of what other areas of the world had to offer. Frankly, I found it condescending that Fred assumed that I should chose Rome or some other place I don’t wish to go to. I also notice you aren’t shy of entering your two cents on the issue.
Thanks for your response. Having read the thread through a few times before attempting to contribute to an open discussion on a public forum I missed any hint of criticism from Fred. I did notice that he seemed to be raising questions as was I.

Quote:Also, I never said “outstripping the creative achievements”. I said: “aesthetic and intellectual endeavors”. And, since we were talking about art museums and concert halls, it seems like a very normal progression to include other institutions that are responsible for the preservation of cultural and intellectual artifacts. Does it not? Also, it is natural that major art museums, concert halls, and libraries should be filled with a selection of international “creative achievements”. Lord knows that the Britihs Museum and the Louvre are . . . and mostly by theft. One would not be able to create great institutions along these lines without looking the whole world over.
Secondly, if you look at the information “at face value”, a population of 300,000,000 having seven out of twenty of the top ranked symphonies and four of the top ten ranked concert halls out of a population of 6,000,000,000 does speak for itself. Especially since these are largely separate from its own culture. The same goes for all the other institutions.
If you want information on University Rankings (and I said nothing about the size of the University on this matter) you can look at Times Higher Education World University Rankings and at the Academic Ranking of World Universities by Shanghai Jiao Tong University. Actually, you can look at just about any world ranking of Universities and they will all say Just About the same thing.
Once again, thank you for your further explanation. It is useful to be able to see sources for your information.
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#27
Speaking of travel...me and my partner are close to doing our dream travel journey through Central and South America...we are skipping a few countries and expect to take two months. We are both brushing up on our Spanish because I would like to be able to communicate clearly and avoid the Ugly American stigma which is unfortunately all too true as I witnessed when I was in Asia.
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