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Secretary Clinton on LGBT Rights in Geneva
#11
US double standards. Again.

Do as we say, not as we do.

First we need to hold those politicians here in the USA that went there to push these laws through. Make them into examples of our own 'high standards', disavow their actions as policy of the USA, impeach them from their office and apply the Hate Crimes Legislation to them in an open trial where they face the exact same sentences as anyone else that practices 'hate crime'.

Maybe if we could point at ourselves and point out that LGBT are treated 100% equally and fairly as the rest of our nation, such as having the same right to marriage as the rest, then we have the moral high ground to point fingers and say 'Oh you are worse than us'.

Lead by example.

While it is a 'good' thing to seek equality for all around the world, I think we would have a much stronger case if we actually practiced what we preached here at home FIRST.

We just saw DADT over turned this past year. That was government policy that the rest of the world knew (and many laughed at). Just because we changed our mind on that does not give us the moral high ground to suddenly dictate to others how they should run their nation(s). We still need to do a lot more before we have the moral high ground here.

I do not see any of these nations taking us seriously as long as we allow the same old tired inequality to take place here at home.
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[SIZE=4]I told you I had the body of a 25 year old....

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#12
FUCK YA!!! she has my vote. PLEASE run for president again!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#13
I'm fine with charities not tied to the government being supported to feed the starving and treating the sick, but not giving the government money that we can only trust will be used for that purpose while freeing up other state funds to go after undesirables that aren't harmful, merely offensive to their religions.

And if their government would rather imprison and execute gays rather than care for their people who have much bigger problems, then it's not a government worth supporting.
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#14
that was an awesome video. everyone should feel the same way.
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#15
Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:US double standards. Again.

Do as we say, not as we do.

First we need to hold those politicians here in the USA that went there to push these laws through. Make them into examples of our own 'high standards', disavow their actions as policy of the USA, impeach them from their office and apply the Hate Crimes Legislation to them in an open trial where they face the exact same sentences as anyone else that practices 'hate crime'.

Maybe if we could point at ourselves and point out that LGBT are treated 100% equally and fairly as the rest of our nation, such as having the same right to marriage as the rest, then we have the moral high ground to point fingers and say 'Oh you are worse than us'.

Wo, Wo, Wo. Lets try and get facts straight before we jump to conclusions.

"First we need to hold those politicians here in the USA that went there to push these laws through."

First, those Americans who were involved in the Kampala workshop were not elected officials or in any other way representatives of the U.S. Government or people. They were acting as members of religious organizations, which, might I remind you, is protected under both the United States Constitution and International Human Rights Law.

Secondly, they do not support the Anti-Gay Legislation in Uganda (at least not as it stands). Here is a copy of a letter signed by one of the participants, Don Schmierer of Exodus International, opposing the legislation:

http://blog.exodusinternational.org/2009...lity-bill/

So, as misguided as these zealots may be, they are not exactly ravenous and blood thirsty, looking to have all gay people in Africa executed.

Finally, I do not think you listened to the content of Secretary Clinton's speech or you would know that she acknowledges the work that has yet to be accomplished here in the United States and that she lists several new initiatives (though minor) that focus on doing that work.

So, though I am sure you are understandably angry, there is no reason to jump to conclusions about who is involved, what they were doing and support, or that there isn't an acknowledgment of work that has yet to be done here as well as other places.

I think, as Secretary Clinton indicates in the above, dismissing the oppositions concerns out-of-hand and painting them with broad strokes is counterproductive to what we want to accomplish. In other words leveling broad accusations and talking past one-another is not going to convince others that we are right.
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#16
It's an interesting development certainly. Most of the anti-sodomy laws on the books in Africa were introduced by European colonialism. The devil's advocate in me sees this as problematic because of the issue of cultural imperialism, and the use of wealth to leverage the moral conscience of a nation isn't likely to produce any positive results. It's not like blackmailing the Ugandan government will do much to help the situation of gays and lesbians in the country. They are more likely to suffer from a number of less directly state sponsored forms of oppression.
When a subject is highly controversial — and any question about sex is that — one cannot hope to tell the truth. One can only show how one came to hold whatever opinion one does hold. One can only give one's audience the chance of drawing their own conclusions as they observe the limitations, the prejudices, the idiosyncrasies of the speaker.
- Virginia Woolf
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#17
That letter is just the opinion of some ex gays...the effort in Uganada most certainly has US Political Ties...you can start with "THE FAMILY" and go from there...

http://carnalnation.com/content/40170/10...ti-gay-law

I have followed this from the beginning...way before they proposed the legislation. I can tell you that a handful of Conservative Republican Politicians...member of THE FAMILY... and religious factions here in the USA were very much responsible for the legislation. Ugandan officials expressed outrage at some of them for publicly decrying what they privately advocated.
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#18
East Wrote:That letter is just the opinion of some ex gays...the effort in Uganada most certainly has US Political Ties...you can start with "THE FAMILY" and go from there...

http://carnalnation.com/content/40170/10...ti-gay-law

I have followed this from the beginning...way before they proposed the legislation. I can tell you that a handful of Conservative Republican Politicians...member of THE FAMILY... and religious factions here in the USA were very much responsible for the legislation. Ugandan officials expressed outrage at some of them for publicly decrying what they privately advocated.

So, since three Republicans are associated with "the Family", meaning, that they live in a row house on C St. they must, by all measures, be responsible for the legislation when even those who participated in the actual workshop have condemned it? Is that what you are telling me?

While it may be worth investigating, the fact that a large, well funded Fundamentalist group has ties to both the Republican Party and anti-gay politicians abroad does not surprise me in the least. I am afraid it would require more than a game of six-degrees of separation to convince me that these three representatives had anything to do with the Bills in Uganda. I don't accept Glenn Beck's conclusions when he plays that game. I wont accept it here either. In other words, if you have resources that indicate a direct and real connection between the two, I am interested. Until then, innocent until proven guilty (that is sadly something we have forgotten in this country).
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#19
Inchante Wrote:So, since three Republicans are associated with "the Family", meaning, that they live in a row house on C St. they must, by all measures, be responsible for the legislation when even those who participated in the actual workshop have condemned it? Is that what you are telling me?

While it may be worth investigating, the fact that a large, well funded Fundamentalist group has ties to both the Republican Party and anti-gay politicians abroad does not surprise me in the least. I am afraid it would require more than a game of six-degrees of separation to convince me that these three representatives had anything to do with the Bills in Uganda. I don't accept Glenn Beck's conclusions when he plays that game. I wont accept it here either. In other words, if you have resources that indicate a direct and real connection between the two, I am interested. Until then, innocent until proven guilty (that is sadly something we have forgotten in this country).

No need to convince you. You are free to believe whatever you like. I have personally taken action to help prevent the legislation from being enacted...making phone calls and writing letters and emailing my Representatives and I have always contributed to Amnesty International...I would rather take action than philosophize about any similarity to Glenn Beck. I have taken an active interest since I was in High School as far as Human Rights Violations around the world and I read alot of information from alot of sources...I am convinced of the involvement of US Politicians and Clergy...you need not be convinced of anything. Perhaps you have followed it as closely as I and perhaps you have done what you can to fight the injustice as well and come to different conclusions..I don't know...but I do know you are entitled to your opinion and I have no desire to change it.
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#20
For anyone who is interested in what The Family is and their history in Uganda....

...an interview from 2009.....




If you are so inclined you might want to read the book. It is always helpful to know who your enemies are.

EDIT: I do want to add this for anyone that is interested.....

http://gay.americablog.com/2011/02/us-se...ganda.html
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