04-30-2012, 08:25 AM
Having thought about this and the replies on this thread I think I get it, or at least as close as I possibly can. Just in case anyone wants to comment or finds it useful I'm sharing my insights here.
I've heard convincing arguments that the reason many people in religion get so irrational and hostile to people who disagree with them (to the point they accuse not only atheists but even fellow believers who have a different interpretation on the religion they share) as “rejecting God” (as opposed to not believing, just like one doesn't "reject Santa" for not believing) is because it's a rejection of the Self, and perhaps Super-Ego, by others that makes them take it so personally. This Super-Ego is completely real and can have physical (particularly in regard to brain chemistry) as well as extreme psychological effects on the person. If the super-ego has “software” so to speak that says (as God) that gays are evil, then the super-ego turns against the self—the Id and Ego so to speak--as the self recognizes itself as being gay, altering brain chemistry as the Super Ego/God responds and creating a real sense of doom and self-loathing, and a feeling that he (as dictated by the Super Ego) DESERVES death and even eternal torment.
The important thing is that the suicidal tendencies come from self-loathing and a desire for punishment as the Super-Ego (recognized by the person as God who is not to be questioned) demands.
The one and only time I tried (momentarily) to commit suicide did involve some survivor's guilt, but I don't think it would've been enough had it not been for several other factors, and the end result even then would be to escape the pain, not inflict it on myself, nor did I believe I “deserved” it but rather “it's not worth it.” I've never attempted suicide again, though I gave it serious consideration twice in a really bad sitch and have thought about it in a philosophical sense and to me the desired goal in these cases was (or would be) to avoid a fate even worse than death (that is, an escape) rather than in punishing myself. Put in its simplest terms, it wouldn't be because I'm bad but because the world is bad, and the point is to end pain (and so the belief of an eternal hell waiting me as a result of suicide and/or being gay would stop me as it would not appear to be the escape I hoped for). And that difference is what tripped me up the most.
Since this is an irrational force I'm not sure what to do about it should I ever encounter it. My inclination would be to show that such beliefs are nonsensical, but I think that would be as futile as trying to convince a small child that there's no monster in the closet so s/he should suck it up and get over it (even when it can be done, it's only temporary, and I've heard that guilt makes such fears even worse in children, like one who said when he was a little boy he believed the Devil would come “crackling out of the ground” to get him for even the most trivial offenses, not only because as a child he was scared of monsters but because he felt he DESERVED it, and no one could convince him otherwise—I'm suddenly glad that he's not gay, or the “devil” might've come “crackling out” of his super-ego to drag him to Hell via suicide...).
The best I can think is expose the one suffering to more liberal interpretations of Christianity (such as this on Romans 1) and hope it can be understood and acceptable to the Super Ego (God). And this seems likely given that seems to be what prevented that guy on the Tyra show above from killing himself. I plan to practice saying “God loves you” just so it doesn't sound so strange to me in case I ever need to say it convincingly.
And this vid might come in useful one way or another (especially to someone who wouldn't want to break his or her mother's heart by being gay yet think suicide would somehow be acceptable as well as hearing how one who believes God hates gays can come to believe otherwise) interviewing a mother who radically changed her religious beliefs after her rejected daughter committed suicide:
I've heard convincing arguments that the reason many people in religion get so irrational and hostile to people who disagree with them (to the point they accuse not only atheists but even fellow believers who have a different interpretation on the religion they share) as “rejecting God” (as opposed to not believing, just like one doesn't "reject Santa" for not believing) is because it's a rejection of the Self, and perhaps Super-Ego, by others that makes them take it so personally. This Super-Ego is completely real and can have physical (particularly in regard to brain chemistry) as well as extreme psychological effects on the person. If the super-ego has “software” so to speak that says (as God) that gays are evil, then the super-ego turns against the self—the Id and Ego so to speak--as the self recognizes itself as being gay, altering brain chemistry as the Super Ego/God responds and creating a real sense of doom and self-loathing, and a feeling that he (as dictated by the Super Ego) DESERVES death and even eternal torment.
The important thing is that the suicidal tendencies come from self-loathing and a desire for punishment as the Super-Ego (recognized by the person as God who is not to be questioned) demands.
The one and only time I tried (momentarily) to commit suicide did involve some survivor's guilt, but I don't think it would've been enough had it not been for several other factors, and the end result even then would be to escape the pain, not inflict it on myself, nor did I believe I “deserved” it but rather “it's not worth it.” I've never attempted suicide again, though I gave it serious consideration twice in a really bad sitch and have thought about it in a philosophical sense and to me the desired goal in these cases was (or would be) to avoid a fate even worse than death (that is, an escape) rather than in punishing myself. Put in its simplest terms, it wouldn't be because I'm bad but because the world is bad, and the point is to end pain (and so the belief of an eternal hell waiting me as a result of suicide and/or being gay would stop me as it would not appear to be the escape I hoped for). And that difference is what tripped me up the most.
Since this is an irrational force I'm not sure what to do about it should I ever encounter it. My inclination would be to show that such beliefs are nonsensical, but I think that would be as futile as trying to convince a small child that there's no monster in the closet so s/he should suck it up and get over it (even when it can be done, it's only temporary, and I've heard that guilt makes such fears even worse in children, like one who said when he was a little boy he believed the Devil would come “crackling out of the ground” to get him for even the most trivial offenses, not only because as a child he was scared of monsters but because he felt he DESERVED it, and no one could convince him otherwise—I'm suddenly glad that he's not gay, or the “devil” might've come “crackling out” of his super-ego to drag him to Hell via suicide...).
The best I can think is expose the one suffering to more liberal interpretations of Christianity (such as this on Romans 1) and hope it can be understood and acceptable to the Super Ego (God). And this seems likely given that seems to be what prevented that guy on the Tyra show above from killing himself. I plan to practice saying “God loves you” just so it doesn't sound so strange to me in case I ever need to say it convincingly.
And this vid might come in useful one way or another (especially to someone who wouldn't want to break his or her mother's heart by being gay yet think suicide would somehow be acceptable as well as hearing how one who believes God hates gays can come to believe otherwise) interviewing a mother who radically changed her religious beliefs after her rejected daughter committed suicide:
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
