horrific shooting where i live

[pellaz]

for every reaction there is a equal opposite reaction:

If we had a kinder gentler society we might not have the lack of gun laws we have now. I am just saying the US pays the price in may ways for the amount of guns in the hands of the average person. Phucking red neck citizens cant get over latent internal fear of dust bunnies under their beds at night.

US right to carry was written into the constitution a long time ago.

[pellaz]

Criminals will always be criminals and they will find ways to obtain firearms regardless. An armed, trained, and well educated society can take preventive actions to stop criminals

The issue i am having is the lack of "trained, and well educated society". Only in the movies will someone stand up and make the day. If your holding hands with the bad guy your in luck other wise your out of range with that hand gun. The average peep dosnt have the skillz in an aggressive situation.


the last two shootings in Colorado did mot specifically involve criminals but rather the mentally unstable. Only those on anit depressants will carry guns.


I am more inclined to see a purpose for people to have a hand gun in the house but it seems there is no limits to the fire arms these geeks can purchase:
to buying 6,000 rounds of ammunition, the Times reported ... high-capacity “drum magazine” large enough to hold 100 rounds and capable of firing 50 or 60 rounds per minute — a purchase that would have been restricted under proposed legislation that has been stalled in Washington for more than a year.
all good but someone wants these people's money no more no less

[ceez]

most guns should not be legal, you can't have a good reason to buy an AR15. however good can come from the right to bear arms like this older gentleman who stopped an internet cafe from being robbed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18...82519.html
all he needed was a hand gun to save his life and the lives of the other customers and employees not a m60.


and I do think its crazy that no one caught on to the guns and ammo Holmes was buying online, some of the stuff can be bought from amazon:eek:.

I just wish someone could have caught on to him before all of this happened. It could have been worse though, with all of the ammo and body armor he had on I doubt turning himself in was part of the plan and he didn't have to tell the police about the boobytraps in his apartment. I think he started to return to reality when the cops arrived.

[Buffylo]

Anti gun folks: Switzerland. Proof in practice of how an armed society works

I had a huge schpeel but this crap forum module kicked me from the reply screen -_- I was addressing multiple points you had said, but it kicked me and I'm not doing that again.

[Pix]

I really think removing access to such weapons will at least force criminals who don't know how to access illegal weapons(Which should be at least a fair amount, as most people in shootings aren't exactly career criminals) to obtain less lethal weapons.
Perhaps my thinking is just naive...

Just so you know I met my first illegal gun dealer when I was 15, a guy in Houston's Chinese district near downtown. He had a bunch of I think AK-47s for sale and at only $40 (normally they're several hundred, both legally and on the black market). He also had grenades that he swore were real at $12 a piece (I described them a couple of years later to a guy who had been special forces and he said they sounded like frags or "pineapples" though I suspect his weapons came from Chinese gun smugglers who got them from Chinese military surpluses, though of course as far as I know they were all paperweights, because it's not like customers could report him for ripping them off). In case you're curious I wasn't there as a customer, I was with a krew of mostly runaways that dabbled in all kinds of criminal activities (but we were still minors and he sold to us) and I recall his getting annoyed with me asking questions but I looked younger than 15 so I think he cut me some slack.

I once helped burglarize a home shortly before this (and for the same krew). An interesting story, IMO, but the main point is it turned out to have a meth lab in it and everyone ran. Given the courage it took me to get in (because of my size I was used to squeeze through a window and let the others in through the back door, though in retrospect I suspect they were also using me to see if there was anyone home or violent dogs as the guy who made me go in first turned out to be a major coward), I wasn't leaving empty handed (after all I had to make money somehow or I'd be turning tricks) so I grabbed a gun that in retrospect I believe was a Mac-11. The guy who led us sold the gun to the fence for me (as they had a habit of abducting girls for prostitution so it wasn't safe for me to go in) and took the credit for stealing it and as it turned out the fence knew the meth dealer and sold him back his gun with the dealer looking for the guy who had the temerity to steal from him (making him run back to California).

When I was 17 I knew of some Russians who smuggled in weapons from Vladivostok (though they charged a lot more than the Chinese guy in Houston), most of them from the military as those are the easiest guns to get in Russia (especially as they have very strict gun control, and heck every single round fired by a civilian has to be accounted for in a written form per bullet, IIRC). Of course the very strict gun control in Russia hasn't stopped the Russian criminals (and even terrorist groups) from being well armed, often with military grade weapons. Heck, Russian criminals are even known to sell vehicles and on a TV special the FBI had some on hidden cam offering to sell agents NUKES (the FBI busted them before taking the chance that they'd actually deliver a nuclear warhead to America, so there's no way to know if they'd have delivered for real, and of course the price for delivery was well out of the reach of most anyone).

A drug dealer I knew when I was 21 offered to sell me illegal armor piercing rounds for my Glock (I'd guess he'd gotten such ammo from a friendly DEA agent as the DEA is constantly "losing" guns and ammo like what he was offering to sell which are illegal for civilians to have just as they "lose" huge loads of drugs, and for the sake of brevity I'll simply say that the DEA is well known by those who pay close attention and/or are streetwise pro criminals to form working relationships with many drug dealers that are mutually advantageous and while illegal it's near impossible to prosecute so agents engage in such corrupt practices with impunity limited by their own conscience, and IMO, people with a conscience probably don't get far in organizations like the DEA). Granted, he could've been lying about what he had though I didn't get that impression.

But normally black market guns and ammo in the USA (unlike countries like China and Russia) come from sources providing for civilians as they're usually easier to steal without having to form contacts with security clearances. However, if legal sources dried up then the demand, and the price, would skyrocket (especially as violent crime increased as it almost always does in the wake of draconian gun control) which means black market dealing would become even more attractive to the military and police (btw, a friend of mine told me that a high ranking officer had been busted diverting military weapons to criminals and he'd done so because he was using cocaine and they blackmailed him into providing the weapons and no one knows how long he did before he was busted for both the cocaine use and illegal gun dealing, so it already happens) and that means that the more deadly guns and armor piercing (the kind that can shoot through walls and cars) would be available on the black market, and to increase sales organized crime would promote them even more to both criminals and beleaguered citizens a like (and thus as easy to get as pot). That raises the stakes and deadliness for everyone involved.

For more, this is as true today as when it was first written by by H.L. Mencken in 1925:

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/..._again.htm

[OrphanPip]

Anti gun folks: Switzerland. Proof in practice of how an armed society works

I had a huge schpeel but this crap forum module kicked me from the reply screen -_- I was addressing multiple points you had said, but it kicked me and I'm not doing that again.

That doesn't really prove much, Japan has strict anti-gun laws and has even lower crime rates.

Crime, I think, has little correlation to how armed or unarmed a society is. What you do get is a higher death rate when guns are widely available because conflict becomes more deadly. In Montreal the drug dealers don't carry guns, because they know they get a slap on the wrist if caught with drugs, but they go to jail for years if caught with a gun. Of course, the criminals have guns, but they don't use them nearly as much, or carry them around with them. This helps keep people alive.

[Pix]

I just can't think of many situations where you'd need to gun down 10+ people in quick succession to defend yourself.
And while criminals who still want such weapons could get such on the black market, i don't think "civilians need these guns to match criminals" is going to cut it; especially when an easier to wield handgun would be just as effective at taking a guy using such down with less collateral damage.

Quick note: I do more or less agree with this. I can think of situations where it could be good to be well armed (like the LA Riots or New Orleans right after Katrina) but for the most part I'm not impressed that someone's gun can shoot farther or faster as all it takes is one bullet (if done right). Granted, if someone were going to make a habit of getting into gunfights then I can see wanting the superior weapons but in the vast majority of self-defense with a gun the gun isn't even fired once, it's simply shown and the criminals run!

There used to be vid footage up on YT (maybe there still is but I got sick of looking at vids trying to find it) of several well armed thugs that tried robbing a store and the little grandmother pulled out her little pea shooter and the thugs ran (the thugs fired back but they didn't aim as they were too busy running away at the same time).

A friend of mine has a Autauga MKII .32 and while very accurate (and tiny, easy to conceal) the distance is so short that basically anything more than 10 feet away (just over 3 meters) isn't likely to be seriously injured. She doesn't care. She says if she's further away than that then she'll run or hide (and she hopes if she ever has to pull it in her own defense whoever is threatening her, and however many, will run away themselves before she has to fire it), and if they're that close she's not likely to miss either so even body armor would likely do much (she could do a head shot at that distance, and a JHP round in the face from that distance would be just as effective--maybe even more so--as an AR-15 FMJ from several hundred feet away).

Of course had she been at that cinema then she'd have to be right by the shooter and damn lucky to get her shot (and who knows how much the gas and dim lighting would mess up her aim and if she missed, or even just got his armor, then she'd get his full attention right after), but if further away she'd just run. She'll openly tell you she's not the hero kind, she takes care of herself (and those she's really close to), and she'd be smart enough to not even try in a case like the Aurora massacre unless she had no other option (like his being right beside her so she couldn't run or hide anyway).

All in all I'm not impressed with big guns anymore than I would be with someone who got a sledgehammer to swat flies with. And then there's the guys who like to put on like 2-10 pounds of accessories on their guns, just what it up with that...

[princealbertofb]

I heard today, or read, that sadly this attack has prompted more arms sales in Colorado... What ARE people thinking of???
It's not as if they'll be still going to the cinema but this time with a weapon concealed under their jacket, is it? (as stupidly suggested by that Texas politician)

[princealbertofb]

[quote=Zet]Aurora is east of denver still, a mix of nice neighborhoods and challenged bad places. The bad is mostly suburban gang related.

But does it even seem that the suburban gang environment had anything to do with it??? In the Huffington post there is an article saying that Holmes hasn't a clue of why he's behind bars... He's seriously deluded or ill.

[OrphanPip]

[quote=pellaz]


But does it even seem that the suburban gang environment had anything to do with it??? In the Huffington post there is an article saying that Holmes hasn't a clue of why he's behind bars... He's seriously deluded or ill.

It seems he was seeing a psychiatrist but I guess he wasn't receiving adequate treatment.