Gay teen murdered
03-05-2008, 01:57 AM
princealbertofb Wrote:No, Ardus, I will not think that you don't care about that poor child.
I carefully worded this to imply that the USA is not the wonderful country that it (I did not say you) thinks it is, but not to bad mouth it, as you say. Of course, to deny that I had some reserves would be being of ill faith but I did not slander your country, nor did I criticise it any more than any American with open eyes would. It's only that the politics that are sometimes applied there (federally or by some of the states) do not correspond to my idea of real freedom. To be honest, I don't think there is any country where one is totally free. This is a very relative notion. Total freedom would probably lead to anarchy. Anyhow, most countries have some form of propaganda going on to defend their views and politics. The United States is no exception. Otherwise, why would it be such a big deal to be a communist there? (Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending communism, however).
Free to carry weapons? No thanks. The death penalty? No thanks. That is not my idea of liberty nor of an evolved society. I am happy with the way my country deals with these things. It's cultural, maybe and it may not even be the best way to deal with these issues. No disrespect meant to you or the United States, I just know that the idea of living in the U.S., with the amount of violence there, scares me. I'm sure I'd feel safer in Switzerland, and yet some of their customs also annoy me.
Besides, I know there are sensible Americans too, but saying that "you are the land of the free and that Americans enjoy a greater degree of liberty than any other place in the world" sounds arrogant to me if not just foolish (but I won't give my country credit either for undermining and demeaning our motto: "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité").
Right now, in my private citizen's concerns, I would like to be free to marry (or not) which I cannot do here, and cannot do in most of the States, but could do in Spain, Belgium, Denmark and Canada. Which country is the most evolved in that matter? Is it France or the United States? Neither. (On traîne des pieds!!= we're slacking behind)
You believe you are freer in the United States than where for instance? China? No doubt about that. Freer than in Monaco? Possibly. Freer than in Canada or Switzerland or France? Not so sure.
I have never felt so pressured to buy and consume as when I was in the US. Admittedly, it was a few years ago. How has that evolved? There again, do people have any other choice than to consume, consume and consume some more? With all the brainwashing that advertising does? If you have no money, you aren't trully free. Just like Switzerland, in America you are only as free as your bank account can make you. Unfortunately, for many, it's a lifetime struggle to make ends meet. (I'm not saying it's getting any better in that respect in my own country, though, and I might be better off living in Denmark or Sweden.)
To return to the initial post, I have heard too many (American) stories of kids or young people taking guns and using them as if they were just toys to be able to believe that carrying weapons is not wrong and should not be controlled.
I've been in the army, I've handled guns. I know they are dangerous. But that experience with guns was in that specific context. I've not held another weapon since, and I'm glad I haven't had to. That's all I meant by that post, Ardus. I'm sorry if I offended you and also sorry if you cannot see that capital punishment and the liberty to carry arms is distasteful (as a general rule) to some of us. Would Brandon have shot Lawrence dead if he'd not had the means to do so so easily? I guess, he might have used his fists instead... At least Lawrence might not have died.
As for a country that is so proud to defend freedom... What kind of country is it where it is so distasteful to a person for another person to tell them they love them, be it same sex? Had Brandon not been scared of what being gay implied, he might have responded more pacifically. The kid had obviously been taught that gay was bad, dirty, sinful, to be destroyed.
Ignorance, prejudice and bigotry are also things that should be opposed. However I doubt that arms are a good weapon for that.
You also said: "Unfortunately the price that our society pays for the greater freedom we enjoy is that we have to put up with people like Brandon McInerney because we don't know they're murderers until they act." It is not the price you have to pay for your greater freedom, it is the price you have to pay for a lack of proper education. The seed of violence had been instilled in Brandon from the year dot. We are, more often than not, a product of our own upbringing. But trying to change mentalities, that's another kettle of fish.
Well first off I should apologize, I tend to respond angrily when I feel the ideas I defend have been slighted even if its not the case.
I do understand that you and many others have reservations about the US and our culture, and your right that in many cases the politcs here are very frustrating and not the most enlightened in the world. The way I feel about that is pretty simple, in a country of 300 million people we're going to have honest disagreements and there are a lot of those 300 million who are not as enlightened as they should be.
As for your feelings about our predicliction for having weapons around it comes from our revolutionary past, the reason our founding fathers included it in our bill of rights is that they felt the people should always have a guaranteeor of their ability to overthrow an oppressive government. There are many in our country and in other places who feel the 2nd ammendment is outdated I however am not one of them, becuase even though in the modern age firearms alone are not enough to stand up to a modern Army, the idea of an armed populace is usually enough to stave off tyranny.
The death penalty is a hotly debated issue here. Most of the debate revolves around wether or not its an effective deterrent. I agree with the people who say its not a deterrent, I don't think it is, however; I don't think that matters. The reason for that is I beleive a society should have the ability to punish those who act in an antisocial way, and I feel that there are certain crimes, Murder, Rape, Child Abuse to name three that I feel should be punishable by death, that cannot be punished any other way.
As far as the land of the Free I will defend that position til the day I day simply because we're the only nation in the world that defends the right of the people we disagree with to be wrong, and I think it's important that the minority opinion have the undenidable right to their opinion, regardless of how distasteful it is. If freedom is based on what someone thinks is right, or what someone thinks is tasteful, then its not really freedom.
As far as the freedom to marry I will freely admit that we are way behind on that issue, as well as the many other issues that revolve around gay rights, that comes from the lack of courage on the part of our lawmakers, who are not willing to go out on a limb because they might not get re-elected if they do. The way I try to change that is to vote against them.
The issue of consumerism is no worse or better here than in any other industrialized nation.
And finally to the amount of gun crime in the US, I don't personally beleive that crime committed with a gun is any different than a crime committed with any other weapon. I realize that a large population both here in the US and worldwide disagrees with me on that but I view a gun or any other weapon as something not intrinsically dangerous but only when used by a person who has an already dangerous intention. That may be a byproduct of my background, I grew up around guns and I learned very early to respect them and use them responsibly. Many people did not.
Anyway, those are my views, I do again apoligize for coming on so strong, sometimes when I think people are badmouthing the US I just respond out of emotion rather than logic, which is something I should learn to control better.
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