Full face veil

[megumidesu]

muslim women don't need to be taught not to be objectified and treated as property . muslim men need to be taught not to objectify women and not to treat them as property .

so if a woman wants to wear the veil , she should be able to . but if she is wearing it because she feels that she should (because she's a woman and therefore a lesser person than the men around her) then that's wrong and something should be done about the attitudes towards woman ...


(obviously i'm not talking about all muslim men . just the ones who have this traditional attitude . i know that non-muslim men also think this way but as the veil is an islamic thing i'm focusing on that)

[Spellbound]

Well, no you didn't. You haven't addressed my hypothesis that a ban would victimize muslim women from two fronts: one from the law and one from the violent husband.

Ok, let's do it again. A ban would say that the veil is unacceptable. Both the woman and her husband would know that, and if they are law-abiding would comply with the law. If they're not, they would still see that many muslim women are not wearing the veil, and that would hopefully help them to change their views. Put it the other way round: by saying that there is no ban implicitely endorses the wearing of the veil.

[VileKyle]

Ok, let's do it again. A ban would say that the veil is unacceptable. Both the woman and her husband would know that, and if they are law-abiding would comply with the law. If they're not, they would still see that many muslim women are not wearing the veil, and that would hopefully help them to change their views. Put it the other way round: by saying that there is no ban implicitely endorses the wearing of the veil.

As meg said in the post above, the veil is not the issue. Abusive men are the issue. You are barking up the wrong tree entirely. And as I've said before, women still have the right to choose to wear whatever they want. A ban takes away that choice. It doesn't take away the abuse.

[SolemnBoy]

Ok, let's do it again. A ban would say that the veil is unacceptable. Both the woman and her husband would know that, and if they are law-abiding would comply with the law. If they're not, they would still see that many muslim women are not wearing the veil, and that would hopefully help them to change their views. Put it the other way round: by saying that there is no ban implicitely endorses the wearing of the veil.

I just don't think men who'd force their wives to wear veils under threats of violence would hold enough regard for the law to respect it as such. Even if they did, it would be likely to change their treatment of the women significantly for the worse. Their not wearing the veils will cause a severe lack of respect from the husbands regardless of whether they did so out of their own will or because of some law.

Like Meg and Kyle said, it's the attitude of the men that needs change.

[davearoo]

Actually, a lot of these 'hard-core' fundamentalist muslims will publicly state that they recognize no law other than Sharia. A ban on veils is unlikely to make any difference to them at all.

[Waylon777]

Well, I would say that people have the right to choose. If the person is being investigated for some federal, or municipal or any sort of police things, then people should reveal their face for the investigation. Otherwise, some people cover it because of religion (i.e. Muslim and Islam). It's some people's culture, and that should not be taken away.

[tavi]

This thread is about veils in the uk not some muslim country where they have every right to do what they like, there not trying to ban something thats been around hundreds of years, anyway this ban wont come about and even if it did it would just make the hate preachers even worse, demanding we become a muslim state, they should be banned and thrown back to wherever they crawled from. I DONT want to walk down a highstreet that looks like iraq with no british shops where im stared at, because i dont belong, not part of the scenery, this is what its like in SOME PLACES that 50 years ago was a different world but now everyones left because how the areas become like is very well recorded in london.

[tavi]

But surely a ban is just counter-productive when it comes to liberating women who are forced to wear these veils. Any man who'd force his wife to wear an oppressive gown must hold beliefs that border on or even cross the line onto fundamentalism. The kind of man who believes his wife is a filthy whore for neglecting her duty to wear the veil. If a ban occurred he would still be forcing his wife and daughters to wear the veils and suddenly they are trapped between abuse from their family and problems with the law. This is far from a proper solution.

You just basically made a point as to why there not liked here in the UK, those who wear them are likely to be more strict and hold extreme views and part of a bigger network, it is in no way british and if you ask do they consider themselves british, they,ll say no and tell you all thats wrong with it, though more likely would not converse with you anyway.

[VileKyle]

We get it, partisan. You hate Muslims. Don't turn this into another hate thread.

[MisterTinkles]

Many Orthodox Jews became American citizens after moving here. Are you saying it's wrong for them to wear beards and black hats?

Anything that identifies them to any other country other than the one they are living in, yes.

As I said, if you are going to move to another country, you adopt THAT countries beliefs, holidays, and ways of life. WE are not supposed to adapt to THEM....THEY are supposed to adapt to US. Otherwise, there is NO reason for these people to move from the countries they came from. Its a slap in the face, it shows intolerance on their part, it shows EXTREME disrespect, and it identifies them with anti-American ideals.

For example:

You live in a nice neighborhood. Everybody has nice yards, keeps their houses looking good, keeps trash picked up, its quiet and its serene.
Then somebody moves in from some other place and does not give a shit about your values of cleanliness, quiet, or have any respect for your neighborhood. They play loud, offensive music at all hours, there is trash all over the yard. Their dogs never shut up, their kids run up and down the street scratching peoples vehicles and only wearing underwear, there are disturbing smells coming from their house, and the house itself looks like something thats been abandoned for years, even though its a new home.

The US government has allowed TOO many people to move over here. And they have NOT inducted them into American society by any means. They bring their other countries crap over here and force everybody else to deal with it. This in itself is OFFENSIVE beyond belief.

You dont like where you live, then you do what is necessary to restructure you life and beliefs to fit in where it is you want to move too! You just dont grab your shit, and move it, and destroy other peoples lives and sensibilities because you are too freeking stupid to use any basic common sense.

And this is exactly WHY there is so much intolerance from actual Americans towards these people. They come over here and do whatever the hell they want, with absolutely NO regard for what THIS country accepts as decent or what people believe in here.

The next war will be a race war, simply for the fact that these people think they have to SHOVE their ways down everybody else's throats, and shit on everything that others believe in the countries they move too. No, thats not ALL people who move here from other countries, but it is the higher percentage rate.

I have met a German man, and I worked with a Mexican woman who brought her family here to get away from the crap they had to deal with in their countries. They shunned their German and Mexican ways and beliefs to have a better life and start all over in a better place. They actually BECAME Americans, and I appreciate them for it. They did not bring their shit with them, they left it behind and learned something new and hopefully better. They did not bring their crap from these other countries and shove it down our throats and disrespect their new homes.

In my personal opinion, and that of many new Americans I have spoken with over the years, the US government needs to ship all these people back to where they came from, if they have no respect or consideration for the new country they are moving too.

And on the flipside, I have heard of many Americans who have been beaten, threatened, and even killed, because they could not have been bothered to adhere to a new countries beliefs, laws, and ways. Regardless of where you are moving from, to where you are moving too, if you dont accept the new ways, you are doomed and dooming everyone around you.

And yes, I got way off the point.......
but there it is.