Acceptance ...

[andy_123]

Futhermore, I really do believe that prejudism, rasicm and discrimination all comes down to one thing... Lack of knowledge. We can promote who we are till the cows come home but they have to listen first.

The fact is that whats being promoted about the gay community at the moment is almost entireley negative. When a hetrosexual reads the newspaper all they see are articles on HIV, peadophilic preists and gay marriage. It annoys me when I see a headline about 2 men trying to have a Christian wedding so god only knows what striaght people think about it.

As has been touched on before we don't help ourselves out either, if where looking for acceptance within the larger community then why do we dress and act so provocatively during gay pride? If we want to be taken seriously by a more conservative group then it seems logical for us to emphasise the points of gay culture that they can agree with. We have good employment rates, we are activeley trying to stop the HIV crisis, we can live in stable relationships, etc etc. No parent wants to go to a gay pride festival and think "right my sons going to turn out gay but on the plus side he'll catch HIV and go about in a 6 foot dildo penis". Pride's an important part of the tradition of the gay community, but people know that we exist now. The next step is to show them that even though we are dissimilar in one way we still have a lot in common, and that can only be achieved by highligting our similarities instead of our differences.

[Shadow]

VERY WELL SAID.

*Applauds*.

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

[Smurlos]

The next step is to show them that even though we are dissimilar in one way we still have a lot in common, and that can only be achieved by highligting our similarities instead of our differences.

That is EXACTLY my point! *applauds too* Very well said! mile:

[andy_123]

Thank you Shadow and Smurlos, I'm glad to see that there are people within the community who realise the importance of working with the hetrosexual majority in order to promote acceptance.

I suppose it's all give and take really, once we've shown that the benefits to our society outweigh the costs then discrimination will be eliminated automaticaly.

[marshlander]

... As has been touched on before we don't help ourselves out either, if where looking for acceptance within the larger community then why do we dress and act so provocatively during gay pride? ...

I lead a band that takes part in carnivals. Part of the problem is that, coming from a protestant tradition as we do in England, we don't have a sense of the exuberance generated by carnivals in more overtly catholic countries, specially those also having strong ties to Afro-Caribbean culture.

It seems to me that gay pride events have taken much from the carnival traditions of Central and South America, but without the same social context. This is very different from a carnival parade consisting of ten decorated lorries that stop the traffic on a wet Saturday afternoon in Britain's towns in summer. British carnivals have allowed carnival committee members to dress as babies in nappies or to cross-dress in order to extort money from the crowds of onlookers. I don't very often see the entrants to the parade dressing provocatively, but I have seen some very exhibitionist Round Tablers (and some very good looking ones too )! We excuse them because we know it's for a good cause and they are raising money for local charities.

Pride events are on a different scale, celebrating an alien life-form (i.e. us) and using an imported format. There is not always a goodwill or charitable element apparent in the parade. If there is, it is usually secondary to the spectacle. People love to be outraged, so they will have something about which to complain or write to the local papers. Pride is also a political statement. Any mass expression of a political nature risks being controversial and threatens the status quo. Being able to celebrate our lives is apparently controversial enough to warrant counter demonstrations by nutters from the religious or political fringes.

The worst behaviour I saw at the one big pride event I attended was drunken showing off by overtly hetero exhibitionists. I suspect a member of the Round Table dressing up in a giant penis costume at a traditional British carnival might raise a few eyebrows, a lot of laughs and a bucketful of loose change.

Get out there and celebrate our good fortune to live in a society that at least tolerates us. There are plenty around the world who don't have that freedom. Let's march, dress up (or down) and dance for them. Just spare a thought that we took a while to achieve this. Toning it down to appease conservative sensitivities is a step back towards the closet. That's not a place I'm heading anytime soon

[andy_123]

I lead a band that takes part in carnivals. Part of the problem is that, coming from a protestant tradition as we do in England, we don't have a sense of the exuberance generated by carnivals in more overtly catholic countries, specially those also having strong ties to Afro-Caribbean culture.

It seems to me that gay pride events have taken much from the carnival traditions of Central and South America, but without the same social context. This is very different from a carnival parade consisting of ten decorated lorries that stop the traffic on a wet Saturday afternoon in Britain's towns in summer. British carnivals have allowed carnival committee members to dress as babies in nappies or to cross-dress in order to extort money from the crowds of onlookers. I don't very often see the entrants to the parade dressing provocatively, but I have seen some very exhibitionist Round Tablers (and some very good looking ones too )! We excuse them because we know it's for a good cause and they are raising money for local charities.

You make good points Marshlander and your views on the origin of gay pride are very interesting. I would like to see whether countries with strong Catholic traditions where more likely to accept pride festivals than those of a more Protestant one, if you know of any books on this matter then I’d be glad to here of them.
One thing that did spring to mind when reading your first paragraph was the apparent relationship between fascism and Roman Catholic festivals. Not only was the fascist movement most popular in Catholic countries (such as Spain, Italy and certain areas of Germany) but the big fascist rallies where said to be heavily influenced by Catholic celebrations. Furthermore it is interesting to note that fascism did not really take off in protestant countries, which might have something to do (amongst other things) with the large organised rallies not appealing to their culture. As you said pride festivals may be a similar phenomenon.

Get out there and celebrate our good fortune to live in a society that at least tolerates us. There are plenty around the world who don't have that freedom. Let's march, dress up (or down) and dance for them. Just spare a thought that we took a while to achieve this. Toning it down to appease conservative sensitivities is a step back towards the closet. That's not a place I'm heading anytime soon

Your right, in the past gay pride has done a good job in promoting our existance, but its aims are outdated now. It's alright celebrating our freedom but h[SIZE=2]ow's the gay community supposed to be taken seriously if we turn something as important as a toleration march into a joke? Fighting for acceptance and a good public profile are critical battles for any minority community and all gay pride does is promote a negative steryotype. I agree with you that pride should not be toned down soely to appease the right wing, it should be toned down to better reflect the image of the gay community.
By having a more Conservative festival we are not stepping back into the closet, rather we are showing the world that homosexuals are normal people who can be encountered in all aspects of everyday life and as such are not going to go away any time soon.
[/SIZE]

[voice]

In the 14 years my partner and I have been together we've met some pretty hard nosed bigots as well (haven't we all). It's odd because most people say they would never pick us as a gay couple and those who have known us for a long time say we're "such a married couple".

We're not in your face type people. We believe to gain acceptance is to be not in your face and generally it works well for us as most people tend to accept us for who we are not what we are. We're often told that we're "not like most gay guys" (ha ha). A lot of the time we find people who haven't been around gay people will ask us questions I'm sure they wouldn't ordinarily ask and we're only too happy to answer them.

But then there's always a flip side. Out in the burbs there are plenty of rednecks with closed minds and a blinkered view on life. So what I say. To each their own.

Here in Sydney though our biggest dilemma is not being accepted by the gay community (not that there really is one here). As a matter of fact I was banned from an Australian gay forum last week for just a week because I'm Christian and didn't agree with a protest they were being a part of to harass the young pilgrims who were here for World Youth Day. They couldn't accept my values which is "if you want acceptance and tolerance learn to be accepting and tolerant as well".

So I don't think it's just society not accepting gay people, but that generally people today only accept that which they themselves already have integrated in their personal lives.

[sox-and-the-city]

It's odd you should say that, as i seem to have the flipside of it in some respects. It goes back to what Shadow was saying about being called weird. I've been called weird for literally as long as i can remember and to be fair i was an EXCEPTIONALLY odd child (he says sitting cross legged on a swivel chair wearing dungarees and a rollneck jumper, cigarette in one hand, knitting to one side, purple curls scraped back, held in place with clips that have wee fabric covered buttons on them, pastel coloured heart-shaped bead necklace catching the glint form his desklamp - not much has changed) and to be perfectly honest i really don't see it as very much of a criticism. I AM weird.

I think there will always be certain people who have problems with anything a bit different and i refuse to stop trying (and dare i say managing) to be myself, which is, i think, what we're all after, and still be taken for the person i am on a much more personal level than "you're gay and i'm fine with that". I get recognised wherever i go and generally get an instant reputation. But again i don't see this as a bad thing. I see it as an opportunity to challenge the labels people give me. The thing is the very people who seem to have problems with me are the one who, when we get talking, are the one who ask all the questions. Questions which i am happy to answer. Admittedly, generally they ask me if all gay men are like me (a question met with indignation), then what it is i see in men (which 8 times out of 10 is accompanied by 'is it the security??) and so on but by the end of it people like that generally come away feeling that they've 'learned something' (their words not mine)...

Far be it from me to proclaim that i'm better than everyone else (i AM, but it's not really my place to say it) but there are some aspects of this debate that worry me. Everybody seems to have this feeling that it's all about 'us' and 'them' in terms of scoiety, as though gay and straight people are intrinsically different somehow and don't all live in the one, plural, society. Really rather than stating ourselves that we have our own society and that we should be 'accepted' or 'tolerated' (i HATE that word, why should someone put up with the way gays are, though it burdens them??) we ought to argue, as well we can, that really we're not any different at all. Gays are people, gays fall in love, gays have sex, gays get their hearts broken, gays are too readily classified. Same can be said of any group, whether it is a majority or a minority.

Ewww, i sound like a yucky preachy holier than thou 'look at me i'm all enlightened' type, huh??

But seriously, i don't see why we don't just argue that we're essentially the same. Because we are. Though i think this mindset has a lot to do with how i grew up. Being gay in a family where my parents are in a mixed-race, age-gap relationship, with a younger brother who has learning difficulties has meant that nothing is really that different to me, so i just think everybody's just the same and if people could see that life be SO MUCH easier. And they won't see it if nobody points it out.

Thus endeth part 1 of my thesis : How To Cope With Being Less Brilliant Than Me. (a title i'm considering should i ever write an autobiography, such is my modesty...)

xxx

[fjp999]

Great reading what everybody has to say... so diverse and well thought out.

I dont think it was here but Shadow said somewhere about carrying "heat" at some times...

Really brings the punk out in me saying "FUCK the assholes who dont accept us for who we are in our many varied colors of the rainbow".

I am sure that some asshole would come out and complain if our parade had everyone wearing a three piece blue suit with white button down shirt and dark blue tie. There is always going to be some asshole complaining that dark blue is the color of the devil, LOL.

I also wonder what everyone thinks about Halloween? I love it for children but am very unsure about the event for adults vs. the gay pride events... What makes it alright for a hetero collegiate wrestler dressing in drag for 6 hours, gaying it up when ever he can for Halloween and a gay collegiate wrestler dressing in drag for 6 hours gaying it up for Pride??? They both go to their normal desk job the next day but the gay wrestler is condemned and the straight guy gets slaps on the back... I just dont get it.

In all the parades I have witnessed the thing that always gets me is the professional groups. Seeing hundred of cops, firemen/women, EMS, politicians, etc etc just makes me get all teary eyed. That is what makes me proud... that these groups of professionals, the same groups that beat us or forced laws against us or... NOW we have taken over those positions and are making changes from the inside.

@Shadow, I think you somewhat took the wrong meaning to my first comment concerning going backwards... I dont think we are doing anything to alienate ourselves to others... that is already built into the "Other". I do feel that the world is becoming more conservative. Maybe it is just about being under a Bush administration and the rest of the world is enjoying a surge of Liberalism - I hope someone is enjoying it all.

[joseph]

hello can i ask a queston. if someone is horrible to you how do you now if it becase you are gay or becase a diffirent reason. like if they were very nasty to you and you dident now why. thnak you josephmile: