Affermative action: yes or no?

[Virge]

before saying anything about affirmative action I want to talk about "unintended consequences" that always pop up with laws or new rules. Things done with good intentions can and do end up doing more damage than they do good. The big example in US history is when they outlawed alcohol with good intentions. The unintended consequences of that led to turning a bunch of small time criminals into multi millionaire crime bosses with an organization that still exists.

Affirmative Action's unintended consequences aren't something I've studied up on enough to give an opinion. I only know what I've experienced because of it and hope what I've run into isn't what everyone has seen.

We had a new Lieutenant come to our unit in Afghanistan. First night there he joined in our nightly talk on politics etc. Somehow the conversation went to the Constitution and the new LT spoke up to say something about Abraham Lincoln signing it. We thought he was kidding at first. Then later on he started referring to Lincoln as the first president. He was the only one in the room with a college degree and rather than argue with a new LT we all went on to bed. Two days later he got into a debate with another LT about why all the maps we used were printed with the words upside down so south was at the top. He was shipped out that night. All I ever heard from an officer about him after that was said in a sarcastic way, "let's hope he does better in med school." Imagine a man like that leading anyone into battle. Scary?

I have a few letters from the veterans administration from people who don't know the difference between 'there' and 'their.'.... or 'here' and 'hear.' I even have one letter telling me a surgery on my hand has been 'opproved.' The VA doesn't hire drop outs, so what's the deal here?

[supasyd]

ok maybe I'm stupid but can somebody explain what this is, in laymans terms?

[HumbleTangerine]

ok maybe I'm stupid but can somebody explain what this is, in laymans terms?

I think the definition or most common usage varies between different countries, so if anyone wants to correct me on this that's fine. Over here it means that companies or various governmental institutions are required to reserve a certain number of positions (usually 40%) to women, since they are under-represented on the market. In general it could be used to promote people who are under-represented based on other factors too, like ethnicity.

[supasyd]

hmmmmm....maybe they should try just encouraging more women to have ambition, and also changing the attitude of sexist employers. Here the laws are equal, but some employers just don't employ women (secret sexists)....from what you've told me, i think that should be changed instead

[Virge]

ok maybe I'm stupid but can somebody explain what this is, in laymans terms?

Affirmative action is a US program thru which they tell universities and businesses they need more minorities, people with disabilities & women.

In universities this has mean that if you're from a underprivileged minority taking exams you can count on getting an extra 10 points or so on your tests just because of your skin color. It sounds good but what its done it produce a boat load of people with college degrees who who're pretty much illiterate.

On tests for job applications and promotions in the private sector, government and military affirmative action gives extra points to minorities. This makes it not unusual for a minority person who had a real score of maybe 85 on a test to get moved up to a final grade of 95, over several people who actually scored better than he did.

There's more to it than that but I'm sure others will explain this also.

[Pix]

Affirmative action is a US program thru which they tell universities and businesses they need more minorities, people with disabilities & women.

In universities this has mean that if you're from a underprivileged minority taking exams you can count on getting an extra 10 points or so on your tests just because of your skin color. It sounds good but what its done it produce a boat load of people with college degrees who who're pretty much illiterate.

On tests for job applications and promotions in the private sector, government and military affirmative action gives extra points to minorities. This makes it not unusual for a minority person who had a real score of maybe 85 on a test to get moved up to a final grade of 95, over several people who actually scored better than he did.

There's more to it than that but I'm sure others will explain this also.

You're assuming that most minorities can't be as bright or competent as white males, but that's not the case.

[Bluelight]

Personally, I find this to be a very complicated subject. Of course everyone should be given a fair chance at getting a job or an education, but companies and universities tend to itemize racial minorities, which is in fact a type of racism.

If anything is wrong with affirmative action, it's the lack of common sense. They should keep the definition of the term "equality" in mind.

[Virge]

You're assuming that most minorities can't be as bright or competent as white males, but that's not the case.

You need to read what I wrote a 2nd time. I didn't make any assumptions about minorities.
I explained how people with lower scores on college entrance exams, final exams etc get extra points for being minorities. The same applies for many work situations. I'm sure there are way more success stories due to affirmative action than there are those who show how the system fails. The only trouble is the affirmative action success stories all blend with others leaving the true failures of affirmative action standing out to be judged against the example of the successes.

In the example I gave with my first comment here, a man who could become a lieutenant in the US armed forces, not know that George Washington, NOT Abraham Lincoln, was the first president or know how to read maps or know the difference between "there" and "their"..... put in command of men in a war situation... where does the issue of being a minority fit into that description of an incompetent, poorly educated officer?

[supasyd]

ooohhh. Like when I did in performing arts they tried to have as much gender balance in the class, and anyone who was an ethnic minority didn't need as good as an audition to get in because they needed tokens or whatever. (To be fair though the one black girl was a pretty decent singer and actor so she would have gotten on anyway). We had too many women though, so some of the lads they accepted performed like a ken doll.....is this kind of the same thing?

[Pix]

^^

You said "boat load" and made it sound like a lot, as if the only reason they got in was because of affirmative action, as if those who were looking for minorities were simply unable to find any minorities as good as a white male to fill their quotas with. In addition was your statement, "not unusual for a minority person who had a real score of maybe 85 on a test to get moved up to a final grade of 95, over several people who actually scored better than he did." The only way that could happen is if they only have illiterates and incompetents to choose from, at least when compared to the superior white male. You didn't say "it happens" as an unintended consequence in the wrong sitch, you said it was "not unusual" which implies it's common, and that therefore they can't normally find minorities who are as good as white males. Otherwise, why would they only be able to find minorities who can, at best, score an 85 when several white males did better? Especially if this happens a lot?

Also, in my observation minorities who want higher education tend to realize they have to work for it while white kids seem to expect it as a birth right with plenty having to take "bone head" courses (ie, remedial high school) before they can even get into a community college as they don't bother to work for it so I'm not buying that a "bunch of minority illiterates" are being pumped out by affirmative action. (Though that said I knew an editor who can share some shocking stories of academic writing, professors who were illiterate and yet got the praise of other professors for their nonsensical papers, and that was in the 60s/70s. So I'll buy illiterates are being pumped out, just not that it's because of affirmative action.)