Sexual abstinence

[excalibur77]

I completely disagree. I sensed that might be an underlying factor which is why I posed the question versus responding to the point you made directly...

That's perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree. I don't see anything wrong with having different ways of seeing things, as long as we maintain respect for each other, then it's all good. Between just the two of us, no one's being catty yet, so that's cool.

For the record, I was talking about abstinence, not asexuality, when I responded to your post about "renouncing pleasure." By definition, when you renounce pleasure, you acknowledge that it's a pleasure. Asexuals have no desire for sex, which means they don't specifically consider it a pleasure. When someone who acknowledges sex as a pleasure renounces it, it's neither insane nor heroic, it's simply a choice, which is why I don't think it's so crazy.

I was also indirectly responding to meridannight's post, saying, "but if you have to repress yourself in order not to have sex, that just makes you fake. no matter how morally high you try to elevate it, still fake." It was the post MisterLove responded to, whose post got a response out of you. I disagree with meridannight's point. There are way too many variables in one's choices to just flat out say they're "being fake," hence why I said, "In a sense, yes. [Abstinence is virtuous] when compared to someone else who's always looking for [the type of sex that a gay man tends to *always look for]."

*I'm talking about one night stands, random hookups, and the kind of sex you know won't last, not the kind of sex you have with your partner. I would liken it to wanting ice cream all the time. Ice cream, as a food, is for pure pleasure - a luxury. You don't really need it, but you're always looking for it anyway. It has no other purpose than to satisfy a craving, hence why I think, in a sense, abstinence is virtuous, because while you recognize that you like ice cream, you're in a place where you don't always crave for it.

Notice that I never used the word 'moral' to describe abstinence. It's because I don't think it necessarily is. Like I said, there are way too many variables to consider with any one person's choices. I am just looking at this discussion strictly subjectively.

[MisterLove]

I 2008 in Gibraltar I actually asked a rabbi about judaism's attitude about sex after I read a thing in a history book about them being completely unlike christian morality about it. [...]

I don't know why you bring up the subject of religion, it has nothing to with that.

I just see great sex as one of the great rewards of being in a great relationship and can't imagine not cashing in on it.

I don't doubt it for a second and if you really are the cute bunny on the photo, I would gladly show you a trick or two of my own.

[MisterLove]

[...]
If one considers celibacy as being virtuous (showing high moral standards) then the logical conclusion of that is that anyone who has sex is demonstrating low moral standards, or lack of morality.

[...]

Abstinence is a virtue for the same reason that addiction is a vice.

And it's not just sex, food/gluttony is another example.

[Virge]

The only thing people don't practice is moderation is moderation.

[LJay]

I 2008 in Gibraltar I actually asked a rabbi about judaism's attitude about sex after I read a thing in a history book about them being completely unlike christian morality about it. He snickered about it.

He explained that jews since the beginning have never put chastity or virginity up on the level christians do. He said judaism is 'sex-posiitve' and that they believe it is not only natural but vital. Then he had some really sarcastic things to say about people who devote their lives to a god who enabled and empowered them to have sex but ignore the natural order of life as it was designed to be lived. He also said he'd place gays and lesbians above priests and nuns.

It sounded good to me.

Thanks! You confirm my suspicion. I am presently following a series of programs with David Suchet about the life of Paul. It is amazing to think of just how much damage Paul did in shaping Christianity. I think his letters could be the original version of a post whore. The boy sure got around.

[meridannight]

Virtue / heroism, etc. is all about making the toughest choices and the tough choice in this case is abstinence (i.e. renouncing pleasure).

well, should i move out of my house and live on the streets then too? because that's a tough choice as well. would that be admirable? or should i give up on a guy i care about? that's a tougher choice to live with than being with him. and all of it for no reason at all? just because it's a tougher way to go? you're not admiring virtue or heroism, you're admiring martyrdom.

people who choose to abstain from sex are not making a tough choice since nobody is forcing it on them. they don't have to choose one thing to the exclusion of another. they are voluntarily adopting a position that entails more suffering.

it has absolutely nothing to do with virtue or heroism. in some cases it is a grab at attention, in some cases it is plain stupidity, in others the people who make such a choice don't have much of a sexual life to begin with so they're not really giving up anything to theoretically admire them for (not that i would in the first place). for some of them declining age (or an underlying medical/physiological condition) might adversely affect their sex drive so they're in fact naturally ''abstinent'' under the facade of all that talk. what is there to admire? i'd admire it if they were honest about it and didn't try to make it into something it is not.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

celibacy: (real definition)
"I'm too damned lazy or unmotivated to compete for the attentions of those I'm attracted to so I'm going to pretend there's some higher spiritual meaning to my not getting laid and just make do jerking off."

That is not altogether true.

[MikeW]

I haven't been sexual with anyone in over 13 years. Not quite sure what to say about that. What I miss most is cuddling.

[East]

well, should i move out of my house and live on the streets then too? because that's a tough choice as well. would that be admirable? or should i give up on a guy i care about? that's a tougher choice to live with than being with him. and all of it for no reason at all? just because it's a tougher way to go? you're not admiring virtue or heroism, you're admiring martyrdom.

people who choose to abstain from sex are not making a tough choice since nobody is forcing it on them. they don't have to choose one thing to the exclusion of another. they are voluntarily adopting a position that entails more suffering.

it has absolutely nothing to do with virtue or heroism. in some cases it is a grab at attention, in some cases it is plain stupidity, in others the people who make such a choice don't have much of a sexual life to begin with so they're not really giving up anything to theoretically admire them for (not that i would in the first place). for some of them declining age (or an underlying medical/physiological condition) might adversely affect their sex drive so they're in fact naturally ''abstinent'' under the facade of all that talk. what is there to admire? i'd admire it if they were honest about it and didn't try to make it into something it is not.

OK...now I think I love you

Beautifully stated...ITA

The only thing I will add...one motivation I have observed is the need to control..... themselves... and other people. ...and then come the value judgements. (BARF)

How many of our "moral values" people have gotten caught with their pants down now? Hell...3/4 of the public figures who I can quote verbatim gave fake moral outrage speeches about Bill Clinton and were doing the same thing he was. It is a teaching moment in life.... I am surprised/shocked/frightened how many people don't connect the dots and figure this out.

America's top anti gay crusader with the picture perfect wife and kids and the colgate smile was a damn crack ho male slut.....which is fine except for the fact he infected millions of minds with his ugly self hatred....

[Steve]

... I am not satisfied by casual sex. I might get off, but it leaves me feeling worse than instead of better than.

I'm not sure how young (old) you are sweetie, but I understand that POV. I mean, casual sex can be fun, but its a lot of damned work for what amounts to a crap shoot (pun possibly intended). You might end up with some fool who's a two pump chump, or someone who ends up as cling wrap when all you wanted was a string of pearls, someone who "paints" any and everything because he doesn't know the meaning of "douche", or someone who rubs you the wrong way without lube - its all about him and not you. I get it. Still, if I were alone, I think I'd probably roll the dice every now and then.

I am a base, vile creature. The extent of my philosophically sexual character-building goes only as far as trying to stretch some part of me around some massive random manhood. To my credit, I am willing to broaden my horizons, so to speak.

Hello. I think I know you Mr. Hyde. :SMILE:

...I have my equipment and I intend to use it!

Now how am I supposed to make any kind of sense when lovely distractions like that are thrust up into my business where I can't possibly ignore them. I'll need something to clean up with at this rate!

At Camfer
Everything but what your dirty mind made you think of first.

We need to wash your ears out with chlorox and pine sol.

Maybe I'll need bleach, cause limp - that's what I thought too honey. In hindsight (a set up for a punch line if ever I heard one), you would have thought the same thing. You just hide your "dirty" better than most folk. (I'll bet he likes it when you hide your dirty too, don't he?) :SMILE:

(Adam) I abstained from sex for a whole hour and 45 minutes the night I met Will --- an hour for him to finish his shift and 45 minutes for him to come pick me up and drive to his place. I'm very proud of my self control

The more I hear about this mysteriously fated evening the more my curiosity is whetted. In the words of Magenta: "More, more, more...".

We will check back on this in 20 years and see what you have to say....
Things look different in your 40's then in your 20's.

True, very true. Then again... at 50 (and by far I am not the oldest nut that fell off the tree today in this forum) things looked different when I woke up this morning to now, just 5 pm. But that's me. Perspective and relationships are different for all kinds of folk. Some couples last a long time (30 years of blunt honesty with my honey pot), some don't. Nothin's the same for everybody.

Adam Lol yeah. I'll have Will PM you with the story next time he comes on. He tells it better than I do. And PM because everyone doesn't need to know how badly I behaved lol...

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. I'm thinking a new thread confessing how some of us met our other halves may be required. I originally thought this topic only had my curiosity piquéd, but I see I'm not the only relationship peeper in the bunch. I think the story of the cop and the physical therapist might be a interesting tale. Or, we could just start a thread and each make up our own version of how the sordid, wicked, nasty, ...innocent meating (yes, I intentionally misspelled that one) took place.

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Asexual vs. Abstinence. Think of it this way:

Asexual doesn't equal abstinence. Abstinence is a choice, i.e. I choose not to f*ck. Being asexual is someone who does not experience sexual attraction, i.e. licking your toes, sucking your wing-wang, floating down the golden river, partaking in the joy of Belgian chocolates, sausage wrapped in a rubber suit with a gas mask, the kissing of skin flutes... none of that is something on my mind. It isn't that the asexual doesn't understand sexual attraction, it just that he/she is not wired to experience sexual attraction. Being asexual is an intrinsic part their personality inventory.

I could only identify with an asexual person on only one point, I think, and that is, I am a hard wired gay man. Some people aren't. Some guys have options. I don't. Sexual relations with a man is intrinsic to my nature. I didn't get a choice. The only choice I got about being gay was whether or not I should be honest or to lie.

It would be a whole different headset to be asexual. In some ways I'd have to think it would be liberating. Face it, not having sexual attraction on the menu shoves a whole lot of issues right out the window. It has to be a kind of handicap too though. Most people in this world aren't geared toward the purely Platonic kind of love. I'd expect it would be an unusual life to say the least.

I'm not going to sit in judgement about abstinence. It might work for some people. It wouldn't work for me. Not to sound like the sci-fi geek that lives in some deep unnamed place in me, but it sounds like Spock, or the Vulcan culture on Star Trek, divorcing themselves from emotion. Why? Why would anyone willingly give up what is hard wired into your nature (assuming you aren't asexual: see above)? It would have to be a pretty damned good reason. And it would take a hell of a lot of mental and physical work. To what end, would be the pertinent question.

"Just say no" never worked for me. I cannot believe that abstinence it is a healthy option. But then again, nothing works for everyone.