Ferguson (St. Louis) Missouri Riots

[JackTX]

http://www.khq.com/story/27489010/nfl-pl...goes-viral

A lot of really good points, though he seems to be blaming the whole thing on "sin" at the end and claims the fix is "not education or exposure [but] the Gospel." Not to add religion to the debate. It's a long weekend but not THAT long :p

[Jake]

Here's the reality of the situation.
Anytime in the US that a white cop shoots a black man or teen it makes world news creating an illusion that this is a major cause of deaths of black men and teens. BULLSHIT.

[SIZE="5"]over 90% of black males who are murdered
are the victims of black men.
[/SIZE]
Black men comprise less than 7% of the population
in the USA yet they are responsible for over [SIZE="7"]
80% of all murders in the USA.[/SIZE]

• But they want to get in the streets and be all over television whining about a judicial system that's unfair to them? They want to march, loot and burn when ONE DAMNED COP was not run up on false charges for shooting one DAMNED THUG ROBBER who assaulted him and tried to take his gun?
  
• Think for a second >>> Judicial system failing who by doing what?
  
• Why the hell aren't they even concerned about the other nine black men kill by black men for every one killed by someone who isn't black?
  
• Leftist politicians are use totally misrepresented issues like the justified shooting of Michael Brown to build up support from blacks.
  
• Call me when you see the same low life race exploiters who were in Ferguson marching anywhere and organizing anything towards doing anything about the REAL largest problems facing black people.
  

And let me know when you hear a LIBERAL politician mention the facts about black murders and just suggest they ought to do something about it

Virge this is a black man responding, not only a black man but also someone who have spent 4 years studying sociology, criminology and ethnicity additional to that I have 4 additional years in behavioral psychology. While I do not disagree with your numbers I believe that you are relying too much on those numbers to explain something that the numbers only cannot explain. There is so much more to explain those numbers than your political vision. It's nice to come around and throw numbers here and there, and looking at them you're just saying that it's normal that black people are violent, that black people are uneducated etc etc.

I do not live in the USA, god thank you because honestly, I really do find USA as a very very xenophobe country and that's seem to be a cultural thing among your society and this my friend I include the black people, Hispanic, Chinese and all ethnicities that forms your society today. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist elsewhere in the world. I have been in many countries of Africa, I have seen how Australia deals with their native, Canada itself have been blamed by the UN for the way they are dealing with their natives.

Your speech is very uneducated because while you believe those numbers to be correct, you also forget that numbers a easily manipulated, and that it's easy to point finger at one social group when they are a minority. Unfortunately, I do not have numbers to contradict the ones you put there, but rich my own experience, the hundred of people killed by Italians, Hispanic, Chinese etc. Aren't as studied as the one showed for the black people, I'm pretty certain that those number you just provided could be easily reflected among white people and I when I mean white people, I include Chinese, Hispanic and mixed race.

I refused to follow the story on Ferguson because I knew very well that this would once again raise the racial profiling debates, having people from all strate of society pointing finger at each other, news and media giving away wrong information etc. We've seen it before and it's not going to be the end of it.

But here's something I'd like to tell however, and it's that. Your speech is that of a xenophobist who believe the numbers without searching further what could be the roots of this issue. Instead of just posting numbers, why don't you go back 10, 15, 20 years back and find how this started, go as far as 100 years if you will to understand what the cause of such violence among black community, How about a little economic study and try to understand what cause poverty, those numbers you have posted does not reflect reality as you claimed so nicely. Because they come from "so called" sure sources doesn't make them real, and also it is important to know which political party has ordered such study.

Virge I am a black man, I was adopted and lived in a town of about 10000 people, I was in 1980 among the only black kids in school, while I had friends, for 13 years of my life I had to deal with subtle racism, xenophobia, ignorance etc. My parents are white, I have a white sister, most of my cousins, aunt and uncles are white, and believe it or not I had to fight to be accepted in my own family. When I tell you that I'm a rich CEO, do you immediately believe or because I'm black you'd have suspicion because we all know that according to the numbers most black are poor and uneducated.

As a white man in a white country, you may not see what's truly going on. While I do not scream to racism for everything that goes on, there is many situations that someone like you cannot understand. And so said I invite you to be a little more vigilant in your speech as I have to tell you right now using numbers like those to prove a point are exactly what bias people would often use to justify their views. I am not racist BUT. Racism, xenophobia, is a very touchy subject that is not fully open to opinions, get the facts, and unfortunately I don't have the time to bring the facts to explain those numbers, but here's a hint, search in the past and you'll find the answer and the solutions to the problem with black people in your country. To fix an issue, you need to get to the roots of it, and numbers may prove a point but they're not facts.

Here are the subfield of sociology:
Conflict, Criminology, Culture, Development, Deviance, Demography, Education, Economic, Environmental, Family, Gender, Health, Industrial, Inequality, Knowledge, Law, Literature, Medical, Military, Organizational, Political. Race and ethnicity, Religion, Rural, Science Social, change, Social movements, Social psychology, Stratification, Technology and Urban

Here's the method used to analyse in sociology:
Quantitative, Qualitative, Historical, Computational, Conversation analysis, Ethnography, Ethnomethodology, Network analysis

Here's the theory used:
Positivism, Antipositivism, Functionalism, Conflict theories, Middle-range, Mathematical, Critical theory. Social constructionism, Structuralism, Interactionism

To truly get an answer to those numbers you have posted, you can use any of those methods, theory or focusing on the subfields. These will bring the solutions and the answer you're looking for. However, I got to say, although there's tons of information available, people tend to go the easy way.

[Virge]

[MENTION=19496]Jake[/MENTION]
You stepped about two kilometers over the line by calling me a Xenophobe -- a fancy word for racist. You DO NOT know me that well... Now if you want to know the mechanics behind people -- like yourself - who do throw that word around.... Here you go -----

You mentioned bigot / xenophobe / racist
I don't use those words. There's a good reason for that. Old wise words here >mutato nomine de le fabula narratur< "change the name and the story is about you" When you boil it down the use of the words "bigot" "racist" or "xenophobe" is nothing but a smug backhanded form of bigotry -- a means of denigrating, marginalizing and even dehumanizing others for their words or actions. It's an attempt to silence them. The use of words like that says more of the person using them than about the people the words are directed upon.

Essentially you entire long comment can be summarized as (using your own words)"I'm an uneducated xenophobist white man in a white country (but) unfortunately, you do not have numbers to contradict the ones I put there, but (from) your own experience, you're pretty certain that those number I just provided could be easily reflected among white people."

Here's a kicker line from you...
[QUOTE]"While I do not disagree with your numbers I believe that you are relying too much on those numbers to explain something that the numbers only cannot explain."

So let me see if I have this right.
Unfortunately, you do not have numbers to contradict the ones I used AND you do not disagree with the numbers I used BUT you believe I am relying too much on the numbers that you can not contradict or disagree with?

so... what you believe is more important and reliable than numbers you don't dispute?

Excuse me for laughing jake. I've never had a reason to doubt any of the claims you've made about your multiple degrees until you dished up that dog-biting-his-own-tail logic.

Your being adopted and my being adopted has nothing to do with this. Oh, wait. You're black and I'm white. And that must mean you're automatically right about an issue concerning a black and white issue. BUT if I said I was right about it because I'M WHITE that's RACISM BIGOTRY AND XENOPHOBIA, right?

Here's a question from you that wouldn't have made it past an 8th grade language teacher with a red pen. Can you please attempt to clarify it so I can at least attempt to answer it.
"When I tell you that I'm a rich CEO, do you immediately believe or because I'm black you'd have suspicion because we all know that according to the numbers most black are poor and uneducated."

Of you 11 paragraphs

• 6 were spent trying to impress me and maybe others, with your omniscient supremacy
  
• 1 was dedicated to admitting you chose to ignore Ferguson issue of this thread
  
• 2 were attempts to mentor me on understanding that you in your omniscience must have concluded I am too ignorant to do without your advice.
  
• 1 contained completely baseless assertions about my character and education.
  
• 1 started off maligning my ability to understand things because I am white.
  

That constitutes as being "all over the place." but mostly about you.

Yeah, you really did step about two kilometers over the line with your response... but I'm going to venture a guess that you won't see it that way and I really really really really want to hear you explain why.

[Aike]

So let me see if I have this right.
Unfortunately, you do not have numbers to contradict the ones I used AND you do not disagree with the numbers I used BUT you believe I am relying too much on the numbers that you can not contradict or disagree with?

so... what you believe is more important and reliable than numbers you don't dispute?

Again, the problem is not (necessarily) that the numbers are wrong but what they are implying. It's just like Jake said: just looking at the numbers it's easy to come to the conclusion that black people are just generally naturally more violent etc. What these numbers need is an explanation for why they are what they are (and here, if you like, we can resort to something like sociology).

Another example: It's often been found out that gay people are more likely to commit suicide or suffer from depression than straight people. Now, if you just present this as a numerical ratio it can serve as a proof for anything. You can - like gay people usually do - refer to the numbers as proof that homophobia is still prevalent in our society and leads gay people to depression and suicide. However, you can also make a completely opposite interpretation and say that gay people naturally suffer from depression because they've made a choice of sexual orientation, which isn't compatible with their natural heterosexual essence (or whatever). Both of these interpretations - although contradicting each other - are supported by the "facts" (=numbers).

EDIT: Just to add something: I have no problems whatsoever in accepting these kind of statistics. To put it in an extremely simplified way: there's absolutely nothing new and shocking about the fact that bad living conditions lead to bad behavior. Abuse a child and it'll increase the chances that s/he'll grow up to be an abusive person. In facing black violence and crime, the white majority is simply facing the consequences of its own crimes.

EDIT2: And Virge, since you like numbers so much, you might want to take a look at the numbers showing that the shooting of Michael Brown wasn't a singular exceptional case but merely a part of systemic police violence against blacks.

[ShiftyNJ]

White people riot over stupid shit

[Virge]

[MENTION=21077]Aike[/MENTION] You've dropped a lot of verbiage in here criticizing the OBVIOUS implications of the numbers I put up and not once attempted to show any other rational conclusion to draw from them. Same for Jake. If you have another interpretation for the numbers please share with us. If you would like to present number to dispute the ones I used please do.

EDIT I'm stunned you'd expect anything unbiased from the Malcolm X Grassroots Movement website. My computer will not open the site -- detecting malware and or other malicious bugs. You had to pass up a load of more credible source to get to that site just to find figures you liked, didn't you?

Meanwhile yesterday news broke that 2 days before the Ferguson grand jury returned its verdict two black panthers were arrested for attempting to illegally acquire firearms. However they were already being investigated by the FBI for their plans to gun down the St Louis County prosecutor in the Ferguson case and the Ferguson police chief. They had also purchased one pipe bomb from FBI undercover agents and were coming back for more as soon as they could get more money.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/natio.../19611167/

[MENTION=21783]ShiftyNJ[/MENTION] No dispute over white people doing stupid things too but trying to draw an equivalency with these examples is really lame . Find them rioting. looting and burning after a grand jury has failed to indict a black man who gunned down a white man and you might have something valid. Also try to find them chanting to kill ad unindicted black man if you can. 25 second video below.

[ShiftyNJ]

You're right, Virge. Being angry about this situation has merit.

[MakeDigitalLove]

Again, the problem is not (necessarily) that the numbers are wrong but what they are implying. It's just like Jake said: just looking at the numbers it's easy to come to the conclusion that black people are just generally naturally more violent etc. What these numbers need is an explanation for why they are what they are (and here, if you like, we can resort to something like sociology).

Another example: It's often been found out that gay people are more likely to commit suicide or suffer from depression than straight people. Now, if you just present this as a numerical ratio it can serve as a proof for anything. You can - like gay people usually do - refer to the numbers as proof that homophobia is still prevalent in our society and leads gay people to depression and suicide. However, you can also make a completely opposite interpretation and say that gay people naturally suffer from depression because they've made a choice of sexual orientation, which isn't compatible with their natural heterosexual essence (or whatever). Both of these interpretations - although contradicting each other - are supported by the "facts" (=numbers).

EDIT: Just to add something: I have no problems whatsoever in accepting these kind of statistics. To put it in an extremely simplified way: there's absolutely nothing new and shocking about the fact that bad living conditions lead to bad behavior. Abuse a child and it'll increase the chances that s/he'll grow up to be an abusive person. In facing black violence and crime, the white majority is simply facing the consequences of its own crimes.

EDIT2: And Virge, since you like numbers so much, you might want to take a look at the numbers showing that the shooting of Michael Brown wasn't a singular exceptional case but merely a part of systemic police violence against blacks.

Great post.

White people riot over stupid shit

Loved this when I saw it.

[Virge]

[MENTION=21783]ShiftyNJ[/MENTION] said
"You're right, Virge. Being angry about this situation has merit."

Angry about what situation?

Angry that a guy who had just committed 2 felonies stealing dope smoking materials from a convenience store then assaulted and tried tried to disarm a policeman didn't get away with it?

Angry that a grand jury made its decision based on evidence rather than on a mob irrational ideas of justice?

[Hardheaded1]

Again, the problem is not (necessarily) that the numbers are wrong but what they are implying.

Actually, one doesn't have to be implying anything. The incidence of murder IS the primary point, not a secondary one, nor one demanding the analyst go to the deeper level. The murder rate, prima facie, is the point. Like the Stalinist murder of millions of his own people through oppression and poverty and secret police, it is wrong in and of itself. One doesn't have to dissect the political ideology and grapple with it. The murder of the Ukrainians in the early 20th century was wrong as an absolute. By like offense, the ongoing murder of so many Black Americans by their fellow Black Americans is wrong. The sad truth is that it has been accepted by too many in the very communities in which the murders occur, accepted as a fact of a life.

It's just like Jake said: just looking at the numbers it's easy to come to the conclusion that black people are just generally naturally more violent etc.

I'm not sure that it is racist to make that conclusion, as there are differences in the races, but I don't see anyone in this debate asserting that point, or even hinting at it. The straw man argument you put forward presupposes that anyone analyzing the data concludes that the murder rate is a product of nature. Quite the contrary. Murder in a modern society isn't a product of biology but of environment. The murders occur in an environment of gang behavior, of drug abuse, of an ethos of violence. It is a cultural issue, and that is not a culture unique to Blacks, but anyone else who adopts that view of society. The question then becomes why the community adopts such a set of values. One may argue that systemic oppression has brutalized a subgroup within the Black population. The analysis then demands why a subgroup and not the larger group.

What these numbers need is an explanation for why they are what they are (and here, if you like, we can resort to something like sociology).

And, as has been required earlier in the debate, one has to ask why the murder rate does not occur in parallel groups in similar poverty.

Another example: It's often been found out that gay people are more likely to commit suicide or suffer from depression than straight people. Now, if you just present this as a numerical ratio it can serve as a proof for anything.

To the contrary, the suicide rate can be the overt evidence of depression and the inability to adapt in a hostile environment. It is a primary conclusion. Asking why the depression exists, imputing accountability, or like reasoning is a secondary level of analysis. Likewise, the murder rate of Black Americans may have roots in many conditions associated with poverty, as it declines dramatically with income improvement and standards of living.

What is woefully missing is the lucid explanation of how majority oppression, or its legacy, causes a Black man on the street in 2014 to go around the corner and shoot his fellow Black man. The explanation must in like manner explain how similarly oppressed minorities in other subcultures and at other times in American history have not turned to murdering their own in like numbers. Where were the same rates to be found among the Irish, the Italians, the Mexicans, or the Poles as they came to America and lived in their own ghettos. All of them were ground to dust in poverty as they began working their way up here.

Slavery only existed for less than a century for America after we became free of England. We have now lived longer post-slavery than during it as an independent nation. Jim Crow laws existed regionally for over a century after emancipation. Great numbers of Blacks fled the South and sought a new start in the industrial North. Their legacy has resulted mixed success. Some climbed the ladder and found footing in the middle class, but far larger numbers wound up in the urban ghettos of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Washington DC, NYC, Detroit, Chicago, and so forth. They were far from the sites of slavery. They were employed in large numbers during the wars and manufacturing booms.

One must explain how the systemic racism, in the North, has bred a subculture that destroys itself as a reaction to lack of opportunity, etc. The logical explanation is that it would have triggered a revolt. Heaven knows that subculture is heavily armed. Why does it turn on killing one another rather than the [supposed] White oppressors?[/QUOTE]