This is Dan Savage at his finest, and most vulnerable

[princealbertofb]

Good on ya, Dan.... Thanks for sharing.

[East]

I love this guy..have a bit of a crush on him actually. I love his wit and his wisdom...and his activism....and his humor...

That was poignant and so eloquent...and it brought a tear to my eye more than once...

[East]

As for what he was discussing....I have had quite a long journey trying to define my spirituality ...on my terms...

When I was in third grade...I got on a hayride with all the other kids in the neighborhood...it was a "hayride for Jesus"...and they took us to a church closeby and we went in and they have the bread and grape juice thing and asked us if we wanted to be saved. Well...of course I wanted to be saved....and I had my bread and grape juice...but I also had a few questions when they asked us afterward....I always do LOL

I wanted to know why they said they came here to bring God to the Indians but instead they killed them all and stole their land? Well....they didn't even answer me. Instead...a bunch of men came over to me and grabbed my arms and escorted me out and so I sat on the hayride by myself feeling very upset and ashamed of myself ...and I NEVER forgot it....I never will....

So...I always felt like "God" was protecting me from my parents when I was little...or maybe a guardian angel...I could feel it....and it was and will always be very real to me. I have heard people try to say it can't be real and I think to myself FUCK YOU...you weren't there...you have no idea....

BUT...I figured out that the God I knew was NOT the God that lived in the churches. The God I knew was more like a brilliant and beautiful and loving spirit that was very inspirational and comforting to me....and it was my best secret. My parents HATED religion so I certainly never told them about it..or anyone....but my spiritual connection was probably THE most important thing to me...

...and it still is...to this day. I don't talk about it much with people who are not like minded...I just say I am a pagan and leave it at that...but my understanding of God is very clear to me..and very important. I have no idea who the churches are talking about...the God I know has no judgement...and the people who scream about God have none of what I consider the "spirit" inside of them...they remind me of lizards for the most part....

I have seen plenty of religious people who have the "spirit" in them..and I wonder how they managed to do that being inside those walls. I figure they are maybe old souls who are well equiped to resist the fear and hate that so many of them instill in their followers. I think organized religion for the most part ruins "God" and pretty much enslaves your soul if you let them.

I believe that our soul is alive..and always will be...it is energy...nothing or no one will ever convince me otherwise...and I have no desire to convince anyone else. I don't really care what anyone else believes. I also think heaven and hell are both right here...right now...inside of each one of us... and what we do about it helps shape the external world....one way of the other. For me...God is about truth...so if I want to feel the spirit and experience "heaven"....being honest with and true to myself is the ticket.

When I started to read some metaphysical books...I kept thinking YES...THIS is what I have always felt..THIS is what I have always believed. No one told me to...I just felt it...so I knew it was right ..for me. Same with a lot of Eastern Philosophy and Pagan principles....

God for me is not a sky daddy...it IS a spirit ...a beautiful energy and force.....

I also have to smile a lot because I see and feel a lot of the "spirit" of God in people who don't believe at all...moreso than alot of the people who do...I think a lot of the religious people's souls have left their body and I think our soul is our life force... so they are similar to zombies for me YIKES (NO SOUL = WALKING DEAD)...which is why I keep my mouth shut LOL...shhhhh!!!!

[ShiftyNJ]

...and it still is...to this day. I don't talk about it much with people who are not like minded...I just say I am a pagan and leave it at that...but my understanding of God is very clear to me..and very important. I have no idea who the churches are talking about...the God I know has no judgement...and the people who scream about God have none of what I consider the "spirit" inside of them...they remind me of lizards for the most part....

I have seen plenty of religious people who have the "spirit" in them..and I wonder how they managed to do that being inside those walls. I figure they are maybe old souls who are well equiped to resist the fear and hate that so many of them instill in their followers. I think organized religion for the most part ruins "God" and pretty much enslaves your soul if you let them.

I believe that our soul is alive..and always will be...it is energy...nothing or no one will ever convince me otherwise...and I have no desire to convince anyone else. I don't really care what anyone else believes. I also think heaven and hell are both right here...right now...inside of each one of us... and what we do about it helps shape the external world....one way of the other. For me...God is about truth...so if I want to feel the spirit and experience "heaven"....being honest with and true to myself is the ticket.

I grew up in church and my understanding of god is somewhat similar to yours. But - as we've discussed - both strong dogmatism plus the hate/fear factor have been absent from my immediate experience. Last night I attended an event in a bar, sponsored by the parish I'm closest to, where we discussed our own concepts of god (which varied quite widely) and everybody was pretty respectful and receptive to others' views. There were members of my denomination as well as several others, and some people who didn't specify how they identified themselves.

[East]

I grew up in church and my understanding of god is somewhat similar to yours. But - as we've discussed - both strong dogmatism plus the hate/fear factor have been absent from my immediate experience. Last night I attended an event in a bar, sponsored by the parish I'm closest to, where we discussed our own concepts of god (which varied quite widely) and everybody was pretty respectful and receptive to others' views. There were members of my denomination as well as several others, and some people who didn't specify how they identified themselves.

I used to talk on Shirley MacLaine's website's spiritual forum alot...I am still a member I think but haven't posted in a long time...and I have enjoyed many conversations with people who have different views than me...BUT...the minute they become authoritarian they lose me....

I have always wondered why so many people think it is important to get other people to beleive the same thing they do. There is something inherently disrespectful about it....and don't even get me started on the ones who think they are "saving" someone else.

[ShiftyNJ]

I used to talk on Shirley MacLaine's website's spiritual forum alot...I am still a member I think but haven't posted in a long time...and I have enjoyed many conversations with people who have different views than me...BUT...the minute they become authoritarian they lose me....

I have always wondered why so many people think it is important to get other people to beleive the same thing they do. There is something inherently disrespectful about it....and don't even get me started on the ones who think they are "saving" someone else.

Agreed... I started learning about polydoxy recently and think I am moving towards it (or already there). Our Presiding Bishop (who is an oceanographer and a pilot... and female!) was challenged to declare that Jesus Christ was the only path to salvation, and she wouldn't. She argued that to assume the way God is manifested to her is the only way that is possible or legitimate is to put God in a very small box.

[princealbertofb]

I love this guy..have a bit of a crush on him actually. I love his wit and his wisdom...and his activism....and his humor...

That was poignant and so eloquent...and it brought a tear to my eye more than once...

Me too, lots of what he was saying about an imminent loss brought back so many memories.... Letting your mother go is one of those difficult acts to balance. Well, I think, in general, maybe not for everyone, [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION].

[Rareboy]

I forgive Dan Savage everything.

He is one of my heroes....even flawed as he is. I love him for all of this not in spite of this.

[East]

^^^^Sometimes...people's flaws are one of the most endearing parts of them...

[Miles]

Sounds like your presiding bishop (whatever that means) has already found a different religion than Christianity. The belief that Jesus is the only way to salvation is the foundation of Christianity.

Depends on "which" Christianity, who's interpreting it, and when/where, I guess. In a sense, you're right. But it can be read in a different way that means the same thing but sounds nicer and more inclusive: instead of "salvation only through Jesus," it can be "all salvation comes from Jesus" (whether it's directly through Eucharist or indirectly through grace or God's plan or whatever, after all only God can know the state of someone's soul right?) Also, there's this Catholic thingy:

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation. Regarding the doctrine in question, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (quoting Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:

"This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)"

Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spes teaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:

"All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery. (22)"

This teaching is consistent with Jesus’ own teaching about those who innocently reject him: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin" (Jn 15:22).

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/article...urch-means

Different ways of spinning it to keep consistent with the laiety's experience of a globalized, heterogeneous world. I'm not familiar enough with other Christian denominations' doctrine to comment on those. I just know that even by the more forgiving metrics above, I've got a 1st class ticket to eternal hellfire. Can't wait!