MikeW Wrote:But you know what bothers me more than the ruthless brute-force physical domination of a group? >>> The FAR more subtle but equal, if not superior, domination of a subject population through perception control. That truly worries me because I see it everywhere around me, in everyone around me. I even see it in myself.
I hear you. I often wonder if the end result today was a planned thing....or just a natural progression from the ultimate power and control junkies....
I think the ship has sailed though....it keeps getting worse. When I say Images are Dangerous...I don't think many people even understand what I mean by that...so I pretty much stopped saying it back in the early 90s because I got tired of explaining it to blank faces...
...and yeah...I fall into it as well and have to pull myself out...over and over....
I generally stay out of these types of discussions, because I have pretty strong feelings that many people here in the U.S. simply aren't able to understand.
My father was Irish Catholic and my mother Jewish, and we moved to the U.A.E. when I was 2 years old and lived there (except for vacations) until I was almost 14 years old.
I went to British and Australian schools, so when we returned to the States permantly, I spoke with an accent that wasn't accepted well by my peers. In those early teen years I suffered a great deal of bullying by "Good Christians" in Louisiana who first despised me for being the child of a "Jew" and later for being "Gay".
Now, I will be the first to admit that the Islamic people I grew up with were not your "average Arabic citizen". They were among the better educated, moneyed class. However, I never saw any of them discriminate against my family in any way. Not because my mother was a Jew. Not because I was an effeminate "gay" boy. The only group of religious persons who have ever openly discriminated against me (physically or verbally) have been Christians.
I don't know how many times I have heard on social media in the past year, "At least your not living in an Islamic country! They would kill you there!". Well, that may very well be true, however, I could just as easily say that about some of the African Nations that have been subjugated by the Christian Right. Our LGBT brothers and sisters are fighting Christian persecution in those countries and they are paying with their lives.
My husband and I have been Bill Maher fans for years, but when he said that all members of Islam are bad because of what their religon teaches and that they ALL somehow condone violence simply by being members of that religon....well, I cannot see how he can say that and not say exactly the same thing about Christians.
I am not, personally, an Athiest. I love God, but I have a hard time trusting his fan-clubs. Some of the members are dangerous, no matter which branch they belongs too.
It isn't Islamists, or Muslims, Christians or Jews that we need to "Get Rid Of", it's the Fundamentalists. From ISIS to the Duggers, they are all bat-shit crazy and shouldn't be given the time of day, much less a soap-box in the Public Square...
[MENTION=13210]Beaux[/MENTION] ...he goes off on Christians all the time....
I think he actually hates all religion and does not believe in God at all. I also believe in God...but I don't define God ...and one of the signs in my bathroom reads....JESUS...SAVE US FROM YOUR FAN CLUB...
East Wrote:Beaux...he goes off on Christians all the time....
Oh, I know, but he has taken the whole Islamphibia to a whole new level this year. He has said on several occasions that Islam is the "worst" religon, and I disagree; I think ALL organized religons have the potential to go to that viscous extream that so many often do, this century it just happens to be the Arabic religons....
Beaux Wrote:Oh, I know, but he has taken the whole Islamphibia to a whole new level this year. He has said on several occasions that Islam is the "worst" religon, and I disagree; I think ALL organized religons have the potential to go to that viscous extream that so many often do, this century it just happens to be the Arabic religons....
~Beaux
Oh yeah...now that I think about it....you are right about that. He does particularly hate Islam....
To me, this is really sad. It's EVERYTHING what I was talking about in my previous comment.
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MikeW Wrote:I do not trust world events -- much less the reportage of those events -- as either "natural" (i.e., happening without the interference of international intelligence/counterintelligence) or "truthful" (free from propaganda and bias). I know for a fact that the developed nations of the west use the US military to advance their economic agenda. I don't even know how to speak about this without sounding insulting. It insults my intelligence to read it. IDEOLOGY "FULL CUP SYNDROME"
To me it is no mere coincidence that we hear so much about the horrors of Shia Islam among people who just happen to inhabit a geopolitical region that WE (western economic interests) have a rather great stake in.
[/SIZE] Are you sure you don't mean Sunni (87% of Islam) rather than Shia (12%)? Shias are tiny minorities in all nations but Iran. Either you don't know the differences in them or misused the word. IGNORANCE
MikeW Wrote:Yes, it is true, Shia Islam causes great harm to many people -- women and children. BUT.. here's the kicker for me. HOW MANY MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN HAVE DIED AT THE HANDS OF THE US MILITARY IN IRAQUE AND AFGHANISTAN SINCE 2001?
FALSE EQUIVALENCE and "FULL CUP SYNDROME" [COLOR="red"]Lack of reason. International Compare Shoe Boxes to Pumpkins Day is in November[/COLOR]
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MikeW Wrote:Especially when [B]I'm pretty sure that a lot of their behavior is being seeded and fueled by our own counter-intelligence for their own clandestine purposes. [/B]
MikeW Wrote:[B]I'm quite convinced that the whole of Western civilization, and the US in particular, is ruled by full-spectrum dominance and has only the *illusion* of genuine freedom.[/B]
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"I'm pretty sure" and "I'm quite convinced" = YOUR BELIEFS/IDEOLOGY If you put the words "I'm pretty sure" or "I'm quite convinced" ahead of "evolution doesn't exist" or "everyone but good christians are going to hell" you'll see the intellectual company you're keeping.
MikeW Wrote:US government is the biggest purveyor of violence this planet has ever known
MORE BELIEF/IDEOLOGY You forgot to preface it with "I'm pretty sure" or "I'm quite convinced" "FULL CUP SYNDROME" If you determine this in humans lives lost the US is not even close to the toll who've been exterminated under socialist governments in peacetime
MikeW Wrote:It's like everything else... it's always about "THOSE OTHER PEOPLE". It's always about people pointing fingers at other people so those pointing the finger don't have to look at, much less take responsibility for, their own bullshit.
]Do you mean like you have done on a wholesale level? .....international intelligence/counterintelligence.... hierarchical economic system.... US MILITARY IN IRAQUE (sic).... the whole of Western civilization, and the US in particular... [B]ZERO REASONING "FULL CUP SYNDROME"
@ Beaux & [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]
I really don't like Bill Maher, but watch him just to hear his opinions and think about them. I have to stand up for him on this.
Originally Posted by Beaux
Oh, I know, but he has taken the whole Islamphibia to a whole new level this year. He has said on several occasions that Islam is the "worst" religon, and I disagree; I think ALL organized religons have the potential to go to that viscous extream that so many often do, this century it just happens to be the Arabic religons....
Islam can be considered the worst of all ideologies [B]when it's understood from a 21st century perspective. Islam is incompatible with the modern world, human rights, liberties, and western culture in general. The short explanation of this that the Quran contains more than sixty commands (by Mohammed) that no word in it can be changed, no word ignored. This makes it impossible for Islam to change and move into the 21st century. It cannot modernize and change itself as Judaism and Christianity have done with slavery, stoning adulterers, cutting hands off as punishment, clothes of mixed fibers, eating of pork, shrimp, lobster etc. Shia and Sunni Muslims are 98% of the Islamic world and both are dominated by imperialist fundamentalism that enforces those commands that no word be changed.
[/B]
East said:
Oh yeah...now that I think about it....you are right about that. He does particularly hate Islam....
BUT have you kept up with the times Maher has made the clear distinction between his "hate" for Islam and lack of it for nonviolent people who practice it?
I understand religion as a cultural practice. I understand cultural practices as historically and geographically determined. As such, they're differently practiced across time and space. Islam, in my understanding, is not (nor have been) a homogeneous thing. Same goes for Christianity. I don't find eternal essences in religious practices, so I don't see Islam as inherently more violent or oppressive than other religions. Religious fanaticism, in my view, has more to do with politics and dominance than religious essences. Given the history of the region and the role of "the west" there, it's not surprising there's a strengthening of extremism. Extreme dominance usually leads to extreme reactions.
Virge Wrote:@ Beaux & [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]
I really don't like Bill Maher, but watch him just to hear his opinions and think about them. I have to stand up for him on this.
Originally Posted by Beaux
Oh, I know, but he has taken the whole Islamphibia to a whole new level this year. He has said on several occasions that Islam is the "worst" religon, and I disagree; I think ALL organized religons have the potential to go to that viscous extream that so many often do, this century it just happens to be the Arabic religons....
Islam can be considered the worst of all ideologies [B]when it's understood from a 21st century perspective. Islam is incompatible with the modern world, human rights, liberties, and western culture in general. The short explanation of this that the Quran contains more than sixty commands (by Mohammed) that no word in it can be changed, no word ignored. This makes it impossible for Islam to change and move into the 21st century. It cannot modernize and change itself as Judaism and Christianity have done with slavery, stoning adulterers, cutting hands off as punishment, clothes of mixed fibers, eating of pork, shrimp, lobster etc. Shia and Sunni Muslims are 98% of the Islamic world and both are dominated by imperialist fundamentalism that enforces those commands that no word be changed.
[/B]
East said:
Oh yeah...now that I think about it....you are right about that. He does particularly hate Islam....
BUT have you kept up with the times Maher has made the clear distinction between his "hate" for Islam and lack of it for nonviolent people who practice it?
I don't see that Christianity has "modernized" itself in the least. Those same quotes about shellfish, stoning homos, and all the other atrocities are still in their big book of fairy tales, just like they are in the other's books of fairy tales, and there are PLEANTY of Christians who would love nothing better than to stone some homos if our government allowed it.
The only difference between Islam and Christianity is....None. It is only because of our secular government that those same Abrhamamic religons are prevented from practicing their haneous beliefs.
Please tell me Virge, what is the difference between the Islamic State in Syria and the Christian State in Uganda? Both cut off people's hands for theft. Both stone homosexuals to death (or worse). Both stone to death adulterers, witches, heretics, ect.
There is no difference between them. If there is a difference between the Islamists in Syria and the Christian State in Uganda, please list those differences.
Beaux Wrote:I don't see that Christianity has "modernized" itself in the least. Those same quotes about shellfish, stoning homos, and all the other atrocities are still in their big book of fairy tales, just like they are in the other's books of fairy tales, and there are PLEANTY of Christians who would love nothing better than to stone some homos if our government allowed it.
The only difference between Islam and Christianity is....None. It is only because of our secular government that those same Abrhamamic religons are prevented from practicing their haneous beliefs.
Please tell me Virge, what is the difference between the Islamic State in Syria and the Christian State in Uganda? Both cut off people's hands for theft. Both stone homosexuals to death (or worse). Both stone to death adulterers, witches, heretics, ect.
There is no difference between them. If there is a difference between the Islamists in Syria and the Christian State in Uganda, please list those differences.
~Beaux
Hey! I know one difference. The Islamists thought of it on their own...but a group of US Conservative Religious Christian Republican Preachers and Politicians went over to Uganda to help them craft the laws they have...including the Death Penalty for gays....all in the name of Jesus....
Can you imagine if their version of heaven was real?...and they were right?...who the hell would want to spend eternity with those fuckwads????
I would just reserve a seat in hell so I didn't accidentally end up in their hellish "heaven"
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