gay - nature or nuture

[curious59]

Hi Guys

I needs some advice here.

I know a guy, who is very butch, liked boys toys when he was a child etc. Has no feminine characteristics.
Was madly in Love with a girl when he 16, but relationship was not consumated. She went on to marry someone else but is now divorced.

Anyone to cut a long story short after he split with this girl, he went on to college and met a gay guy, and was in a relationship with this man for 20 years. I know he was the 'top', because his ex is a member of another forum and describes himself as only passive.

First question - what made this masculine guy gay (I understand it is nature in the more femine tyoe of guy), but this guy is ALL MAN and was ALL BOY as a youngster.

And second was it rejection by the girl, which turned him or was it the gay guy at college?
It wasn't his parents as they are very traditional and straight. He is an only child and a bit of a mummies boy however. He is also German (is being gay/bi more common over there than in the English speaking world??)

I have come to this forum to ask my question, as I would like the view of some gay guys on this to understand this person

[sox-and-the-city]

If we're gonna get into the tecnicalities of it tis to do with the bursts of male hormone which affect the formation of a foetus into a male while in the early developmental stages in the womb.

All babies start out as female, which is why men have redundant female characteristics (nipples, mammary glands, etc), but at a certain stage *racks brian but can't remember offhand exactly WHEN* the foetus recieves three massive boosts of male hormones *again, doesnt remember but used ot know more exact details*, now if teh balance of these hormones differs slightly, and there is less, then the foetus will retain other feminine characteristics (feminine behavioural patterns, attraction to men, the ability to multitask, the ability to recognise the two tones of voice masculine brains can't hear, etc)

Basically, gayness is programmed into our brains, we are born this way and you can't magically 'become' gay or 'turn' gay, contrary to popular belief. From personal experience and the testimonies of friends i've come to understand that it just takes differing amounts of time for men and women to understand their sexuality.

The effects of the hormone levels at that developmental stage can have differing results, such as 'effeminate' straight men, 'masculine' gay men, 'effinmate' bisexual men etc.

Putting what i remember and my poor explanation of it aside, sexuality has nothing to do with how 'manly' or 'womanly' a person is. That's like deciding all guys with blue eyes like cheese, and it'd be really surprising if one of them, didn't. Or like saying ginger women all feed ducks wholemeal bread instead of white and it'd be out of the ordinary if one didn't.

To put it another way. He never was and never will be straight. He just came to terms with himself. Or is bisexual. His environment, nationality and lingual capabilities are not factors. The gene that activates it runs on the X chromosome, otherwise we'd all die out. Makes sense. It also makes women who carry it want to have more children. The say God works in mysterious ways...

The main thing to remember and this is the Christian in me coming out here, so feel free to discuss, just don't cuss (Say what you mean, mean what you say and DON'T be mean when you say it), but we're all made in the image of God and we're all just as valid even if we're made slightly differently. Takes all sorts and all that. I often wonder why we always ask why about things (though to be fair i usually ask that AFTER finding out the answer, so contrary am i).

So there you have it. Much love. Any further questions would be better directed at someone who's better versed on it all than me. It's been AGES since the science nerd in me has any time to move, having been so strongly stifled by my love of languages and i've not read any relevant studies/papers etc for longtime...

[fjp999]

Dont know where to begin curious59...

I would say that you have to start by examining your "ancient" opinions on what a gay man is or isnt.

I hope I am not being too forward but many things you write are not only sexist/homophobic but near racist.

It is just my opinion and nothing more but I believe that humans are born bi-sexual and along the way one MAY acknowledge a preference one way or another. Some believe that when the population grows too large mother nature takes over and creates more homos.

What we do know is that most believe that 10% of the population is gay. So think about every human you know and pick out the one out of ten who is positively gay.

Now to some specifics... when ya say "boy toys" I am guessing you dont mean anal butt plugs... he was with a female for a very short time but did not consumate BUT was in a 20 year relationship with a man... Um, seems pretty clear that your boy is a 100% homo. Hell, I am 100% homo and have had relationships with a couple women...

Well, that being said, I must say that reading your post again and again it just angers me at your idea of gay men in the year 2009 and it is your kind of thinking that keep your ALL GAY MAN in the closet and unable to acknowledge who he really is... shame shame shame... I hope that others on this forum will be able to help you in a more un-emotional manner than I have found myself in... sorry if I have hurt your feelings but... UGH

[yar]

I agree with fjp999 Being 67 years old and out of the closet for just over 3 months. I have known that I was gay at a young age and due to pressures of the time, I played at being St.8 But deep within I was very aware it was an act. I came out of the closet and have never been so free. Iam out to all and very PROUD of it.

[marshlander]

I saw this post last night and thought I'd leave it so I could write more calmly! Curious59, you are welcome here to discuss whatever you think is relevant, but it would have been more useful had you done a little homework first. Sox-and-the-city and fjp999 have made very clearly most of the points I would have made. No one turns gay just as no one (despite the efforts of the "ex-gay" brigade) turns straight. The UK government and local authorities say they plan for services on the basis of 6% of the population being gay/lesbian. Other sources of information suggest the true figure is closer to 2% and some as much as 10%.

Sox quoted some of the research that has been done in this area. A very good place for the lay person to get some idea of what current thinking includes is the John Barrowman BBC programme, "The Making of Me". It is available on You Tube in six parts (since You Tube videos have a maximum running time of 10 minutes). Because there have been a number of new people join the forum since I last mentioned this I'll put the first part up:

The others can be found on the You Tube site.

I realise you probably came here out of genuine curiosity, but I, for one, would have received your question far less defensively if your message had not been expressed in such uninformed terms. Some evidence that you had tried to think this through first would have placed you in a much better light. For some reason many straight people think only of the bedroom and of anal sex in particular when discussing people who happen to be gay. For me being gay is much more about having the capacity to love and be loved by someone of the same sex. Sexual love is a small, but vital part of this love as it is in any partner relationship. I assume you too have favourite sexual positions, but I don't need to know what they are to be able to accept you as a straight woman. There is a flaw in your reasoning that you can know what went on within (and without) a relationship, because of someone else's Gaydar profile!

Despite obvious advances in society's attitudes to minority sexualities, there is an enormous pressure to conform to the heterosexual ideal. As a teenager I believed the lie that I was going through a phase. I truly believed I would grow out of it. I expected to have a stable marriage. I desperately wanted to be a father. At nineteen I married the woman who had been my best friend since the age of sixteen. I tried to make it work and failed although I tried for nearly three decades. The result was a lot of pain for the people I loved most in the world and a stack of mental health issues for me. By the time I reached forty I was very unwell and was forced to face up to who I was. Life has been much better since that time.

I hope you find whatever it is that you are looking for.

[Phil]

... UGH

Go Frank Go Frank!!!

[fredv3b]

Basically, gayness is programmed into our brains, we are born this way

I am sorry but I am going to nit-pick here. The above is certainly the way the science is heading (either due to hormones or some other factor). However I don't think the science is far enough along to state it as a definite fact yet, just a probable one.

Also as an aside, everyone seems to assume that the cause(s) of female homosexuality will be the same/equivalent to those of male homosexuality. I don't see why this would necessarily be the case.

[Star Twister]

Was madly in Love with a girl when he 16, but relationship was not consumated. She went on to marry someone else but is now divorced

Are you per chance the girl/divorcee ?

[sox-and-the-city]

I am sorry but I am going to nit-pick here. The above is certainly the way the science is heading (either due to hormones or some other factor). However I don't think the science is far enough along to state it as a definite fact yet, just a probable one.

Also as an aside, everyone seems to assume that the cause(s) of female homosexuality will be the same/equivalent to those of male homosexuality. I don't see why this would necessarily be the case.

Do we REALLY need science to prove that one?? Or can we just use our own experience to point out that one doesn't simply wake up one morning and go, 'Oh, i know, i'll be gay!! Great!! Ooooo, french toast!!'

THAT's my point. Experience and testimony prove me correct, irrespective of whether or not science is yet capable of producing what it considers to be 'concrete' evidence of this.

[fredv3b]

Do we REALLY need science to prove that one?? Or can we just use our own experience to point out that one doesn't simply wake up one morning and go, 'Oh, i know, i'll be gay!! Great!! Ooooo, french toast!!'

There is another possibility. I did not choose to speak English (as a first language), but nor was I born programmed to speak English. It was a result of the environment in which I was raised. Although I think it is doubtful I don't think this possibility of childhood influences is scientifically discounted yet.

THAT's my point. Experience and testimony prove me correct, irrespective of whether or not science is yet capable of producing what it considers to be 'concrete' evidence of this.

One persons testimony is another persons hear-say, one persons proof is another persons sincere belief. Your personal experience that you regard as proof may not be accepted by others. One of the objects of science is to gather objective evidence in order to draw conclusions that we can all agree on.