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Pope back same sex civil unions
#11
This announcement of his has caused an outrage in my country. So many people are trying to twist his words to make it seem like this wasn't what he meant at all.
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#12
@Insertnamehere Probably to try to save face or win support from moderate conservatives who apparently need their food cut up for them...
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#13
In a time of more polarized politics I would have expected him to revert to hardline conservatism, so I find it weird.

I do get his "reformist/not that kind of pope" crap he was known for in his earlier years but LGBT issues were within the few topics where he remained very conservative.

I don't know what kind of game he is playing but it may be what you said.

Maybe it has finally kicked in back in Italia that the Catholic church is bleeding people worldwide and they either modernize or face extinction?

Still, the powerful conservative hardliners will not back him here, I think. I mean, they still resist whatever amount of "modernization" Vatican II made back in the 60s
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#14
(10-31-2020, 05:28 PM)Insertnamehere Wrote: In a time of more polarized politics I would have expected him to revert to hardline conservatism, so I find it weird.

I do get his "reformist/not that kind of pope" crap he was known for in his earlier years but LGBT issues were within the few topics where he remained very conservative.

I don't know what kind of game he is playing but it may be what you said.

Maybe it has finally kicked in back in Italia that the Catholic church is bleeding people worldwide and they either modernize or face extinction?

Still, the powerful conservative hardliners will not back him here, I think. I mean, they still resist whatever amount of "modernization" Vatican II made back in the 60s


I think it's possible the guy might just be genuine. I still wouldn't consider him an ally, but I think what he's been doing might be more along him trying to reconcile his internal struggle with the fact that - who would've known - gay people aren't demonic - and what his religion actually says. With conservatism and right-wing ideology spreading, I think if he was actually making cold, calculated guesses as to what will maintain his church's numbers, he'd be catering to the crowd that's trying to drag us back into the Dark Ages. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he kicks it or retires, he'll be replaced with a - God help us - a "Make the Catholic Church Great Again" kind of pope, and we can only hope that pope isn't nearly as big a master manipulator as Trump is.

Ultra-conservative Catholics who think they're "too Catholic for the Catholic Church" so to speak, are nothing new - Mel Gibson and his father I think are part of some sort of radical sect, and the USA's new Supreme Court Justice is from a a Catholic group that supposedly forbids men from wearing big belt buckles and requires unmarried women to wear white panties (you can't make this stuff up). Radical sects breaking from the Catholic Church is nothing new - that's where the whole origin of Protestants came from, after all, although it's funny that most Protestants have no idea their own Bible is in fact a butchered version of the Catholic Bible (the book of Maccabees holding the Catholic basis for Purgatory, for example, which most Protestants have never even heard of, while constantly saying Purgatory ain't in the Bible).

Still, no matter where the Catholic Church goes, we need to always remember religion isn't the only source of homophobia. Eastern Europe and Russia tends to be rife with non-religious based homophobia, and Karl Marx literally thought being gay was a "luxury" of the bourgeoisie.
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#15
(10-31-2020, 08:09 PM)Chase Wrote: I think it's possible the guy might just be genuine.

I don't know if this is you showing a non-Catholic-area dwelling naïveté (but you do live right next to the former-MA-that-got-kicked-out-of-MA-because-they-were-Catholic-infidels..right?) or this is me being the jaded son of a Catholic country (their numbers are bleeding rapidly and down to 45% tho), but I don't think so. 

"Catholic dogma" and "genuine" are two words I can't manage to get together in the same sentence (I just did but you know what I mean). Pay attention to is tenure in Buenos Aires, that is all you need to know. Francesco is not to be trusted.

(10-31-2020, 08:09 PM)Chase Wrote: I still wouldn't consider him an ally, but I think what he's been doing might be more along him trying to reconcile his internal struggle with the fact that - who would've known - gay people aren't demonic - and what his religion actually says. With conservatism and right-wing ideology spreading, I think if he was actually making cold, calculated guesses as to what will maintain his church's numbers, he'd be catering to the crowd that's trying to drag us back into the Dark Ages. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm guessing when he kicks it or retires, he'll be replaced with a - God help us - a "Make the Catholic Church Great Again" kind of pope, and we can only hope that pope isn't nearly as big a master manipulator as Trump is.

When it comes to the RCC, politics I do understand. They are less faith than they are politics. That is my point here. And that is what makes this announcement all the more suspicious to me.

But, the RCC is suffering a well deserved influence crisis for reasons we all know. They are not the powerful political faction they once were and neither you, nor me, or anybody else needs Francisco "the progressive" to give a blessing for anything. Now more than ever the citizenry can make that happen well on their own, at least in your country and in mine. They have done so already, in spite of the RCC, not with their help.


(10-31-2020, 08:09 PM)Chase Wrote: Ultra-conservative Catholics who think they're "too Catholic for the Catholic Church" so to speak, are nothing new - Mel Gibson and his father I think are part of some sort of radical sect, and the USA's new Supreme Court Justice is from a a Catholic group that supposedly forbids men from wearing big belt buckles and requires unmarried women to wear white panties (you can't make this stuff up). Radical sects breaking from the Catholic Church is nothing new - that's where the whole origin of Protestants came from, after all, although it's funny that most Protestants have no idea their own Bible is in fact a butchered version of the Catholic Bible (the book of Maccabees holding the Catholic basis for Purgatory, for example, which most Protestants have never even heard of, while constantly saying Purgatory ain't in the Bible).

Yes. Más papista que el Papa is a famous saying in Chile. Yeah, we have those. Not a day after he made this announcement a group of these (all graduated in Law from the Pontifical Catholic University) were foaming out of their mouth over this, because, as good observing Catholics they are they thought it was ok and morally superior to tell the Pope...you, know...the ultimate authority in that wretched sect that is dogmatic Roman Catholicism...that he was wrong.

I'm not quite talking about them though, even though it is obviously these kind of people that project the most damaging aspects of religion onto public policies when they intervene in politics. I am talking about the group of cardinali italiani, the powerful ultras in the Vatican, the ones that elect the guy. They won't be on board with this and while they may fail to punish Francis, they will get their revenge when he kicks it or when he decides to retire. 

They were never happy with him in the first place, I mean, A "progressive"? And a f*cking sudaca on top of that? I feel another Ratzinger coming and considering how much the far right is picking up strength worldwide, that guy will have it ripe to intervene. 

(10-31-2020, 08:09 PM)Chase Wrote: Still, no matter where the Catholic Church goes, we need to always remember religion isn't the only source of homophobia. Eastern Europe and Russia tends to be rife with non-religious based homophobia, and Karl Marx literally thought being gay was a "luxury" of the bourgeoisie.

No, it isn't, that's true. But it is the topic we are discussing right here. I wouldn't discard the Orthodoxy part of the XXI century version, Putin-style of Russia's Autocracy-Orthodoxy-Nationality trifecta as a part of homophobic resurgence in Russia and in other parts of Eastern Europe where the Orthodox Church still holds sway. It is not the only source but an important one. 

As far as Marxism goes, I don't think think it holds much sway in homophobic attitudes anymore. Autocratic countries that follow or followed it have various homogenizing attitudes and policies that don't include homosexuals regardless and very well without the ideology behind it. Democratic countries where a modern left has been established (old social-democrats to younger socialists to, yes, even modern communists) have taken upon LGBT+ rights as part of their political agendas. 

Chile might not be a universal example, but if you look at the Chilean Communist Party, once equally homophobic to far right parties before the 1973 coup has, in the modern day largely abandoned it. Not that they were the ripe examples of "far radical left" here (nevemind the "communist"), but hey. The Frente Amplio, the more leftist group of politicians in Chile and arguably the closet to "Marxism" is very much for LGBT+ rights. Even the old leftists and some center right folks are on board. As of now only the Church and the parties that identify strongly with classic conservative Catholicism (all in the far right) are against LGBT+ rights. 

Hence, and forgive all this insane babble, I cannot put any trust in Catholic authorities anywhere.
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