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Is it wrong to demonize "Rosary Rattlers" as they are sworn enemies of GLBT?
#41
nullnaught Wrote:O.K., to be fair, I don't know anything about the man beyond the superficial. I admit, I have a blind unreasoning hatred of the church and shouldn't have commented beyond the fact that is was a straw-man arguement.

You will not I tactfully ignored the stray man argument comment. No foul. We're good Wink
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#42
OK. I wasn't certain that you understood how the church does thing.

I have been playing Devils Advocate on this thread.

I do disagree with with Churches (plural) - the Organized Religions and their take on the bible and their use of Doctrine and Dogma. This is one reason why I do not have my own parish today. Wink





East Wrote:I do understand the point you are making and it is valid in relation to the church and the organization...I understand that...but my own personal dynamics dictate that I ignore and reject their reasons in favor of moving humanity forward.

My response and opinions are due to my own individual life experience and they reflect where I came from and where I have been...

Personally...My grandparents who raised me for almost 5 years were from Germany and I was not allowed to speak German even though we lived in an all German neighborhood in New York . None of the children were. They were immigrants who had plenty of opinions of Hitler...alot of them fled Germany.

They raised me because my mother was violent and I was hospitalized...my father was absent as a member of the Air Force and then College so it was his parents who took me in.

The cornerstone of my recovery was to completely reject Dogma and Tradition and everyone else's expectations. I divorced my parents to the horror of everyone around me who thought I was the devil incarnate for doing so. I am not sorry they are dead though I have actively been trying to embrace forgiveness for them for my own sake. I have no use for dogma and I adopted this philosophy not without great cost...but the freedom was worth the price I paid.

So...using tradition and dogma as an argument with me is never going to have any impact on me but I thank you for a well reasoned and interesting discourse. Confusedmile:
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#43
WesHollywood Wrote:If you would like, I can access some horrifying examples of the Roman Catholic Church destroying GLBT lives.

Is turn about fair play? Unlike Catholics GLBT are not in the "turn the other cheek" business.

We in advertising/politics, like it or not, are like the guy in a TV show who finally gets the drop on the bad guy. Then he shows compassion and lets him up. And is rewarded by being killed himself. GLBT has learned this lesson with the Roman Catholic Church.

Meanwhile big doings at the Vatican, traditional Catholics and modern Catholics have BOTH been reprimanded by the Pope. There is a serious wedge growing in the Roman Catholic Church that, hopefully, we could help along. We are talking 1.2 Billion Roman Catholics in Papal crisis. Sweet, huh!

So concerned American CITIZENS drive a wedge into the turmoil. The Catholic Church has been in and out of the news about pedophile priests. Now it is reaching the Cardinal, and perhaps Bishop levels.

[Image: 111110_paterno75_ap_328.jpg]

Then we have the Penn State coaching scandal. Imagine if news coverage of Catholic priests exploded the way things are at Penn State? Nice, neat, the Catholic Church shoots itself in the foot while GLBT are on Ellen. lighting candles, and singing Kumbqya! Why should we get our hands dirty? GLBT did not create the crisis at the Catholic Church. But, we know how to help GLBT friendlies manage it! Of course this is just speculation, an opinion on my part of what could happen. I have no inside information.
Butter

[Image: candle+light.jpg]
The only question that remains is timing.
Christmas season, I doubt it, closer to the 2012 election.

Yes we are under no obligation not to destroy them.
And i know they have destroyed many peoples lives, including GLBT ones.
How is "they destroy GLBT lives" justification for us to do the same to them?

They are people, if we don't treat them as such, they wont ever learn that we are too.

And there are gay Catholics too. Do we destroy their lives too?

I'm sorry, i don't support "an eye for an eye" mentality. It just eternally perpetuates assholeness, vengeance and over-generalisation when applied to a whole demographic.
Quote:According to your header, you are 43 years old, which tells me you have had adequate time to consider GLBT marriage verses the Roman Catholic Church. You have made up your mind, and you don't even know it. You have been brainwashed by Catholicism.

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]You believe the Pope over what your own heart and body tells you. So, on my tally sheet, when push comes to shove - and it has - you are anti-GLBT marriage.
GLBT can not count on you to vote in your own self-interest, let alone that of your sisters and brothers.[/COLOR]

You are one of those, "I want to play, but I won't pay with a commitment" types. "I am too weak to think for myself - good thing I have my Pope to decide for me!" I speak for many who are tired of paying the political freight so guys like you can grab a little cock on the side when you want it!

Hope I am I making that closet a little tight for you?
Silly Sarcastic So-and-so
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#44
WesHollywood Wrote:According to your header, you are 43 years old, which tells me you have had adequate time to consider GLBT marriage verses the Roman Catholic Church. You have made up your mind, and you don't even know it. You have been brainwashed by Catholicism.

You believe the Pope over what your own heart and body tells you. So, on my tally sheet, when push comes to shove - and it has - you are anti-GLBT marriage. GLBT can not count on you to vote in your own self-interest, let alone that of your sisters and brothers.

You are one of those, "I want to play, but I won't pay with a commitment" types. "I am too weak to think for myself - good thing I have my Pope to decide for me!" I speak for many who are tired of paying the political freight so guys like you can grab a little cock on the side when you want it!

Hope I am I making that closet a little tight for you?

Yes, I'm 43. Yes, I've had PLENTY of time to think things over. And as I alluded to earlier, I've come FULL CIRCLE on the question of belonging to the Catholic Church.

I'm also old enough to know when someone is trying to pick a fight and smart enough not to take the bait.

Remybussi

I am presently closeted.
I am presently single.

So you're right, I have nothing at risk.

But a happy balance can be found in this world. Experience tells me that balance is never found by ZEALOTS on either extreme.
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#45
But a happy balance can be found in this world. Experience tells me that balance is never found by ZEALOTS on either extreme.

I am 54..I have been openly gay since I was 15...and that happy balance you mention is a tad condescending...these zealots on at least one side have been fighting for equality due to the action of the zealots on another.

Sure...there is alot of "unhappiness" and a lack of balance when a partner who has been with someone for 20-30 years looses everything because the church actively obstructs people that are not even it's own members from enjoying equality under the law.

I watched AIDS unfold and I can spend the next four hours telling you one story after another about the unbelievable heartbreak and cruelty with partners not being allowed at the bedside of the person they love....it still haunts me to this day...I watched and listened and it was raw and it never leaves you...

Right now the surviving person of a couple who were one of our best friends and who got together when we did 25 years ago is rehabilitating and learning to walk after an accident killed his lover and left him paralyzed and in a coma. he woke up to have his whole life and all his possessions ripped from him by his lovers religious family with the full support of the law behind them. I felt sick listening to the story and so very angry..too bad he can't enjoy the balance you speak of....

Your church has done alot of damage to GLBT people..damage that cannot be undone...ruined alot of lives....

...so thank God for the zealots who are working for TRUE balance...not the kind of balance you describe. Equality is the TRUE BALANCE.

I am not condemning your choices..they are what they are...but to suggest people who are fighting for the equality and who stand up to the church are zealots is a bit too much for me.
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#46
East Wrote:But a happy balance can be found in this world. Experience tells me that balance is never found by ZEALOTS on either extreme.

I am 54..I have been openly gay since I was 15...and that happy balance you mention is a tad condescending...these zealots on at least one side have been fighting for equality due to the action of the zealots on another.

Sure...there is alot of "unhappiness" and a lack of balance when a partner who has been with someone for 20-30 years looses everything because the church actively obstructs people that are not even it's own members from enjoying equality under the law.

I watched AIDS unfold and I can spend the next four hours telling you one story after another about the unbelievable heartbreak and cruelty with partners not being allowed at the bedside of the person they love....it still haunts me to this day...I watched and listened and it was raw and it never leaves you...

Right now the surviving person of a couple who were one of our best friends and who got together when we did 25 years ago is rehabilitating and learning to walk after an accident killed his lover and left him paralyzed and in a coma. he woke up to have his whole life and all his possessions ripped from him by his lovers religious family with the full support of the law behind them. I felt sick listening to the story and so very angry..too bad he can't enjoy the balance you speak of....

Your church has done alot of damage to GLBT people..damage that cannot be undone...ruined alot of lives....

...so thank God for the zealots who are working for TRUE balance...not the kind of balance you describe. Equality is the TRUE BALANCE.

I am not condemning your choices..they are what they are...but to suggest people who are fighting for the equality and who stand up to the church are zealots is a bit too much for me.

I believe gay couples are entitled to (or should be) every LEGAL right afforded straight couples under the law of the Constitution.

The Church is WRONG for pushing its belief structure on the state.
And the state is WRONG for telling the Church how to perform its rites.

There is plenty of blame to go around for the inequality that exists in the world.

I don't know how to be any more clear. Perhaps one day I'll settle down with a guy and in order to secure what should be our legal rights we'll "get married" in some type of ceremony.

That's all well and good.

I'm pretty sure that ceremony won't be in a Catholic church, but you know what? God made me; God knows me; and God loves me. No matter what happens in Wash DC or Rome, God loves me.
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#47
The Church is WRONG for pushing its belief structure on the state.
And the state is WRONG for telling the Church how to perform its rites.


I missed the part where the state told the church they have to perform gay marriages. Marriage is a legal institution.

No church should be forced to do anything that is against their belief but if they want to insert themselves into the political process I think they should start paying taxes.

By your definition I am one of the zealots you speak of and I believe in the principle of equality under the law. I also support with $$$ the ACLU who defends people I do NOT agree with because I believe in the principle of free speech and I believe in protecting our civil liberties. ...and I think in matters of social conscience I am balanced in every way that matters as my fight for equality is not because I am gay...it is a matter of principle. Putting yourself out there and fighting for what you believe in is nothing to be ashamed of.
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#48
East Wrote:The Church is WRONG for pushing its belief structure on the state.
And the state is WRONG for telling the Church how to perform its rites.


I missed the part where the state told the church they have to perform gay marriages. Marriage is a legal institution.

No church should be forced to do anything that is against their belief but if they want to insert themselves into the political process I think they should start paying taxes.

By your definition I am one of the zealots you speak of and I believe in the principle of equality under the law. I also support with $$$ the ACLU who defends people I do NOT agree with because I believe in the principle of free speech and I believe in protecting our civil liberties. ...and I think in matters of social conscience I am balanced in every way that matters as my fight for equality is not because I am gay...it is a matter of principle. Putting yourself out there and fighting for what you believe in is nothing to be ashamed of.

As Bowyn Aerrow alluded to up-thread, the Churches could be backed into a corner if certain laws were passed.

I don't really wanna discuss tax law--I don't have anything to offer there.

I support the ACLU, not with $$$, but I believe their mission is a good one.

I don't know you well enough to characterize you as a zealot. If you choose that moniker it's up to you.

I'm simply trying to live faithfully, honestly and fairly. I hope that much is obvious.
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#49
LateBloomer Wrote:I'm a practicing Catholic ... admit the Church is wrong on a lot of contemporary issues ...

And they've been wrong in the past.

And they will be wrong in the future ...

I follow Christ, not politics. Don't confuse the two.

stick your head in the sand and hide. At least we know politics is a real lie. For example there are verifiable liars on FOX every night.

Christ is the 10th century version of a virtual life

by your own admission the catholic church dosnt know what it is doing:
not processing the contemporary times well
wrong in the past
and will be wrong in the future

do you read this for a reality ck?

everyone has a belief system, congratulations you found yours but just could have you held out for a more functional one?
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#50
I am actually rather laid back and easy going until one of my core values is challenged and then I will fight. I am pretty much a textbook case of an INFP. Silence = Death as far as I am concerned. I have chosen a side and it is not the church...and I do believe I have balance though I define it differently than you do.

I don't know you well enough to characterize you as a zealot. If you choose that moniker it's up to you.

Your original statement referring to zealot is something that offends me because it reminds me of all the people who never really take a stand calling the people who do names and dismissing them. It is not your problem that it offends me...it is mine.

I also dont' beleive that the church will be '"forced" to perform gay marraiges...I think it is a false statement used to rally the troops but just in case it IS an actual threat..write it into the law.
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