I don't think we're past that point. Many schools have started only to move their instruction online due to it spreading there. So with just ~2% of the population having or had COVID-19 at this point I think we're just getting started. With many people wanting to go back to normal and can't be bothered to wear a mask. You know, I get it, being cooped up in your house that may or may not be a good place for long extended periods of time and told not go outside, you have to social distance and so on and how that can very easily make depression worse, anxiety worse and how all that can also aggravate other health conditions.

I don't think we're to the point where we can lift restrictions and go back to normal. If people would behave, wear a mask, not go out in public when they know they have COVID, yeah things would be a lot better than they are now...but once the politicians and everyone started making this a political issue it just all failed. With the current state of things, I don't think we're close to going back to normal.

Links to the Wall Street Journal...  again, some "experts" say one thing, another can say the opposite...

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/396196/

Quote:There wasn’t time to gather that sort of evidence: Faced with a poorly understood and rapidly spreading pathogen, they prioritized saving lives.

Five months later, the evidence suggests lockdowns were an overly blunt and economically costly tool. They are politically difficult to keep in place for long enough to stamp out the virus. The evidence also points to alternative strategies that could slow the spread of the epidemic at much less cost. As cases flare up throughout the U.S., some experts are urging policy makers to pursue these more targeted restrictions and interventions rather than another crippling round of lockdowns.

Targeted restrictions such as? Social distancing by age group? Masks worn by people with health problems? I mean those are all good ideas...but the problem is @"kindy64" anyone can carry the virus, be infected and not know it and anyone can get sick or have complications from it, I know that very well. It might not make me sick but it might make other people sick.

And who the hell is Glenn Reynolds to say whether health experts are more sensible in 1918 than in 2020? The last place I would get my information about COVID-19 is a political website, consider the sources of information. Instapundit?

Somewhere between a complete lockdown and doing nothing is where we need to be. Experts can't seem to agree on anything, and neither do politicians, so your guess is probably as valid as my guess is. The politicians largely pay the experts, so take all they say with a grain of salt, especially when they are in front of the media.

Other sources saying roughly the same thing...

https://fee.org/articles/4-life-threaten...lockdowns/

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/...598285442/

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/...597341859/

(08-25-2020, 09:06 PM)kindy64 Wrote: Somewhere between a complete lockdown and doing nothing is where we need to be. Experts can't seem to agree on anything, and neither do politicians, so your guess is probably as valid as my guess is.  The politicians largely pay the experts, so take all they say with a grain of salt, especially when they are in front of the media.

Other sources saying roughly the same thing...

https://fee.org/articles/4-life-threaten...lockdowns/

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/...598285442/

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/...597341859/

Considering people can't agree on where to eat, then factor in me telling one of my friends I'll give you $20 if you suggest that awesome sushi restaurant.... Not that I would actually do that....

There's a lot of unattended consequences to all these restrictions. I do think that considering 177k have died now, I think we're mostly doing the right thing. I get that areas that don't have outbreaks probably see less benefit from restrictions. Then again that changes quickly. In the county bordering the county I live in schools have already switched to online because kids have already tested positive. So I imagine where I work the same will happen at some point, it's nobody's fault. I can't blame school officials wanting to have classes...I mean I like getting paid, but I'd also rather not attend a funeral over zoom.

Not necessarily related to this discussion but I do wonder what the long term effects are of having been exposed to the virus. Maybe a lot of people don't get sick from it now, but could cause health problems 10, 15, 25 years later...

I know it wouldn't take a whole lot to overwhelm the hospitals around here. They simply don't have the staff, the beds... People who get in a car wreck around here often have a helicopter take them to another hospital 2 hours away...Thankfully, it hasn't got to that point and hope it never will.

some of you didnt live in nyc this spring and it shows

(08-29-2020, 05:28 AM)Emiliano Wrote: some of you didnt live in nyc this spring and it shows

Most of the US doesn't live in NYC, so no, they didn't look out their windows to see refrigerated trucks parked outside. They didn't see tents setup outside their hospitals and heck most people don't even know their hospital ER's are full, the ICU's are full and so on. People are fickle and forgetful, even if they saw and heard about some of what was going on in NYC on TV they probably forgot about it. Trying to have a civil conversation about this is difficult with people with very different opinions, very different political views, so far, these discussions have for the most part remained civil. It is very easy to reply with a quip, it is easy to tell the other person(s) they're morons (probably more colorful language than that) and all sorts of things. I do value your opinions on things as I have in the past.

(08-29-2020, 02:49 PM)InbetweenDreams Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 05:28 AM)Emiliano Wrote: some of you didnt live in nyc this spring and it shows

Most of the US doesn't live in NYC, so no, they didn't look out their windows to see refrigerated trucks parked outside. They didn't see tents setup outside their hospitals and heck most people don't even know their hospital ER's are full, the ICU's are full and so on. People are fickle and forgetful, even if they saw and heard about some of what was going on in NYC on TV they probably forgot about it. Trying to have a civil conversation about this is difficult with people with very different opinions, very different political views, so far, these discussions have for the most part remained civil. It is very easy to reply with a quip, it is easy to tell the other person(s) they're morons (probably more colorful language than that) and all sorts of things. I do value your opinions on things as I have in the past.

My natural response is to want to apologize like coming off that I was just replying with a sassy little quip. But then you go and explain everything that I didn't take the time to put into a thoughtful, genuine reply. So clearly you get it. And clearly you are picking up on some of my frustrations about the argument against complete lock downs. 

Covid hit NYC early, in terms of America. Before we understood really what it was and how to protect against it. Studies have shown it was brought here in February from European tourists mostly.

I have always been a big supporter of the idea that if I can't serve as a role model, then let me serve as a terrible warning. And "the rest of America", you all really should be looking at NYC as both a terrible warning and as a role model. There's a reason we have a travel ban on most of you. Because you didn't pay attention to what happened here, and even less so, you didn't pay attention to what we did to get our numbers so low. 

This is something that is spreading across America. And all I meant to say was that the lessons that should have been learned, have not been learned. And it shows. 

I'm sorry if I'm not being super delicate. I really do try to be careful about my wording and what I say so that people will take me seriously, and more importantly, so that it shows that I am taking others seriously. Because I do, whether I agree with a person or not, I have an understanding of our shared humanity and the difference perspective can make. But I also care about people's lives. And call me a big city, liberal elitist all you want... not saying that you did, but I'm aware of what this country thinks of NYC and New Yorkers. And out of respect, I am biting my tongue, and editing this post. I am. 

But again. If NYC can't serve as a role model for the rest of country, then let us serve as a terrible warning. I have a lot of love for where I'm from. And we are hurting bad from the consequences of a full and total lock down. Yes things are reopening now here, my gym just sent me an email being like you can come back! And we are going to start charging you a monthly fee again whether you do or not! And if you want to cancel your membership you have to come to our gym and do it in person. 

But for a city who depends on tourism, office workers, night life... this is a long road ahead of us before anything ever feels like normal again. Which it's hard to believe it ever will. But then again, I mean, what effect did the 1918 / 19 Flu really have on the 1920s and beyond? I am sure we will reach a point where we will all forget about this too. 

It should not take the complete and utter devastation and loss of life that it took NYC, for the rest of America to understand the gravity of Covid. Not because we are better than you and your area. But because we are an American city, and it happened here, before it happened to elsewhere. So let us be that terrible warning of the effects of this virus on any location that is not prepared to handle it.  

Some of you did not live in NYC during the spring of 2020 and it shows. Sadly. 

It is a difficult conversation and people do have differing opinions, and as good, compassionate people we want to be careful and aware of how we come off to people who think the opposite of us. But you know, if anyone has a problem with what I've said, let them argue with me. And I wont get angry or anything. I'll just have a panic attack and cry.

Because that's the kind of shit that living through the spring of 2020 in NYC will do to a person.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: [quote='InbetweenDreams' pid='708562' dateline='1598708960']
My natural response is to want to apologize like coming off that I was just replying with a sassy little quip. But then you go and explain everything that I didn't take the time to put into a thoughtful, genuine reply. So clearly you get it. And clearly you are picking up on some of my frustrations about the argument against complete lock downs. 

I wasn't offended by that or anything, I just know you have more to contribute than that...I was also probably not in the greatest mood that day over who knows what.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: Covid hit NYC early, in terms of America. Before we understood really what it was and how to protect against it. Studies have shown it was brought here in February from European tourists mostly.

I have always been a big supporter of the idea that if I can't serve as a role model, then let me serve as a terrible warning. And "the rest of America", you all really should be looking at NYC as both a terrible warning and as a role model. There's a reason we have a travel ban on most of you. Because you didn't pay attention to what happened here, and even less so, you didn't pay attention to what we did to get our numbers so low. 

This is something that is spreading across America. And all I meant to say was that the lessons that should have been learned, have not been learned. And it shows. 

It does seem that like minded people are taking COVID seriously. I mean the way I look at it, if I catch this crap from work I'm probably attending a funeral before the end of the year. That is a possibility. So, I have to remind myself NOT to feel bad when I work from home. I mean, hell, if not my parents, someone else at work, this crap could take me out -- pretty nasty stuff. When you hear things like someone's child getting blood clots in their lung and arm from it, it is a sobering reminder of the reality. Unfortunately, it seems to fall on political lines...I don't know why, I mean science works the same way no matter who you are and what you believe. I do think there is a part of the population who just don't care and they will make all the lockdowns pretty much for nothing, that is if a vaccine doesn't come out soon and there are some trials that appear to be going well so maybe there is a glimmer of hope. Of course that's not without all the conspiracy theories about microchips...which reminds me, people education is important...and so is mental health.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: I'm sorry if I'm not being super delicate. I really do try to be careful about my wording and what I say so that people will take me seriously, and more importantly, so that it shows that I am taking others seriously. Because I do, whether I agree with a person or not, I have an understanding of our shared humanity and the difference perspective can make. But I also care about people's lives. And call me a big city, liberal elitist all you want... not saying that you did, but I'm aware of what this country thinks of NYC and New Yorkers. And out of respect, I am biting my tongue, and editing this post. I am. 

But again. If NYC can't serve as a role model for the rest of country, then let us serve as a terrible warning. I have a lot of love for where I'm from. And we are hurting bad from the consequences of a full and total lock down. Yes things are reopening now here, my gym just sent me an email being like you can come back! And we are going to start charging you a monthly fee again whether you do or not! And if you want to cancel your membership you have to come to our gym and do it in person. 

I do as well try to be careful how I word things...many times have I edited, or just decided not to post, definitely better to have a cool head when I write. I learned a while ago that arguing with people who won't take the time to read and digest what you wrote is a waste of time...Facebook and Twitter for example. Social media is a dumpster fire. Thankfully there are places on the internet where you can still have an intelligent conversation.

Nothing wrong with being a liberal elitist, or being liberal for that matter. I'm probably not far left, but I'm definitely not conservative...or libertarian (I kind of feel like that's like a low-calorie republican...maybe low-carb...hmmm).

NYC is definitely in trouble. I read a few articles saying that NYC may lose 30% of small businesses. I subscribe to a YouTube channel, Louis Rossman who runs a company fixing Apple products and does a lot of videos about NYC, particularly, commercial real estate. I can see how small businesses can easily fail in NYC when rent for a 2,000 sq ft, which is really 1,350 sq ft for $18,000 a month but hey they're "near" Broadway. I once was self-employed, I considered renting a commercial space which if I recall would have been around $1,200 a month or something like that, I mean it is more expensive than residential which is expected, but how can anyone make that kind of money doing anything? I was doing good if I grossed $2,000 a month, granted I was used to making $10/hr 10 years ago and definitely couldn't do it these days. Big cities do have issues that are specific to big cities, but to say NYC is bad because it is ran by liberals is a dumb fucking statement. A lot of cities have financial problems that don't make the headlines. The county (because let's face it, the town I live in is like 2-3 blocks) I live in made a big deal about funding the community college, over some deal made back in the 70's, we're talking $60k which would be used to hire custodial employees. They're just as petty and crooked here as anywhere else. Of course, I don't all that was the point that you're trying to make. While selling real estate here is good right now, people haven't felt the impact yet. A lot of people were upset when the Governor closed bars, restaurants and hair salons, you thought these people had their big screen TV's taken away, or someone stole a kidney and hey I get it. Not because I need a haircuit, but I get that these people who work at those places and run these businesses are screwed. I do think that everyone should have been bailed out and that the mortgages and rent should have been frozen. Frankly, I think the cost of losing 30% of small businesses across the country is going to be devastating and will take probably more than a decade to recover from....I think it would have been cheaper to simply bail people out and extend payments on everything. Instead, we get political theatre.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: But for a city who depends on tourism, office workers, night life... this is a long road ahead of us before anything ever feels like normal again. Which it's hard to believe it ever will. But then again, I mean, what effect did the 1918 / 19 Flu really have on the 1920s and beyond? I am sure we will reach a point where we will all forget about this too. 

It should not take the complete and utter devastation and loss of life that it took NYC, for the rest of America to understand the gravity of Covid. Not because we are better than you and your area. But because we are an American city, and it happened here, before it happened to elsewhere. So let us be that terrible warning of the effects of this virus on any location that is not prepared to handle it.  

Some of you did not live in NYC during the spring of 2020 and it shows. Sadly. 

It is a difficult conversation and people do have differing opinions, and as good, compassionate people we want to be careful and aware of how we come off to people who think the opposite of us. But you know, if anyone has a problem with what I've said, let them argue with me. And I wont get angry or anything. I'll just have a panic attack and cry.

Because that's the kind of shit that living through the spring of 2020 in NYC will do to a person.

Nope and unfortunately people didn't take heed and now states like Florida, Texas, California and Georgia get to live the same thing, except their governors (haven't heard much about CA) aren't really doing anything. If anything, I hear that Florida is messing with the counts, all political crap and lies. What a shame it is that we have politicians try to sweep their inactions (that caused loss of life) under the rug. I really wonder how many of these politicians have a conscience...or a spine for that matter.

Anyway, don't fall into the trap believing that the world is vile and gray, there are plenty of good things we, as humans, tend to focus on the bad stuff....the news channels and our pop-culture reflect that quite often.

(09-03-2020, 03:10 AM)InbetweenDreams Wrote:

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote:

(08-29-2020, 02:49 PM)InbetweenDreams Wrote: My natural response is to want to apologize like coming off that I was just replying with a sassy little quip. But then you go and explain everything that I didn't take the time to put into a thoughtful, genuine reply. So clearly you get it. And clearly you are picking up on some of my frustrations about the argument against complete lock downs. 

I wasn't offended by that or anything, I just know you have more to contribute than that...I was also probably not in the greatest mood that day over who knows what.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: Covid hit NYC early, in terms of America. Before we understood really what it was and how to protect against it. Studies have shown it was brought here in February from European tourists mostly.

I have always been a big supporter of the idea that if I can't serve as a role model, then let me serve as a terrible warning. And "the rest of America", you all really should be looking at NYC as both a terrible warning and as a role model. There's a reason we have a travel ban on most of you. Because you didn't pay attention to what happened here, and even less so, you didn't pay attention to what we did to get our numbers so low. 

This is something that is spreading across America. And all I meant to say was that the lessons that should have been learned, have not been learned. And it shows. 

It does seem that like minded people are taking COVID seriously. I mean the way I look at it, if I catch this crap from work I'm probably attending a funeral before the end of the year. That is a possibility. So, I have to remind myself NOT to feel bad when I work from home. I mean, hell, if not my parents, someone else at work, this crap could take me out -- pretty nasty stuff. When you hear things like someone's child getting blood clots in their lung and arm from it, it is a sobering reminder of the reality. Unfortunately, it seems to fall on political lines...I don't know why, I mean science works the same way no matter who you are and what you believe. I do think there is a part of the population who just don't care and they will make all the lockdowns pretty much for nothing, that is if a vaccine doesn't come out soon and there are some trials that appear to be going well so maybe there is a glimmer of hope. Of course that's not without all the conspiracy theories about microchips...which reminds me, people education is important...and so is mental health.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: I'm sorry if I'm not being super delicate. I really do try to be careful about my wording and what I say so that people will take me seriously, and more importantly, so that it shows that I am taking others seriously. Because I do, whether I agree with a person or not, I have an understanding of our shared humanity and the difference perspective can make. But I also care about people's lives. And call me a big city, liberal elitist all you want... not saying that you did, but I'm aware of what this country thinks of NYC and New Yorkers. And out of respect, I am biting my tongue, and editing this post. I am. 

But again. If NYC can't serve as a role model for the rest of country, then let us serve as a terrible warning. I have a lot of love for where I'm from. And we are hurting bad from the consequences of a full and total lock down. Yes things are reopening now here, my gym just sent me an email being like you can come back! And we are going to start charging you a monthly fee again whether you do or not! And if you want to cancel your membership you have to come to our gym and do it in person. 

I do as well try to be careful how I word things...many times have I edited, or just decided not to post, definitely better to have a cool head when I write. I learned a while ago that arguing with people who won't take the time to read and digest what you wrote is a waste of time...Facebook and Twitter for example. Social media is a dumpster fire. Thankfully there are places on the internet where you can still have an intelligent conversation.

Nothing wrong with being a liberal elitist, or being liberal for that matter. I'm probably not far left, but I'm definitely not conservative...or libertarian (I kind of feel like that's like a low-calorie republican...maybe low-carb...hmmm).

NYC is definitely in trouble. I read a few articles saying that NYC may lose 30% of small businesses. I subscribe to a YouTube channel, Louis Rossman who runs a company fixing Apple products and does a lot of videos about NYC, particularly, commercial real estate. I can see how small businesses can easily fail in NYC when rent for a 2,000 sq ft, which is really 1,350 sq ft for $18,000 a month but hey they're "near" Broadway. I once was self-employed, I considered renting a commercial space which if I recall would have been around $1,200 a month or something like that, I mean it is more expensive than residential which is expected, but how can anyone make that kind of money doing anything? I was doing good if I grossed $2,000 a month, granted I was used to making $10/hr 10 years ago and definitely couldn't do it these days. Big cities do have issues that are specific to big cities, but to say NYC is bad because it is ran by liberals is a dumb fucking statement. A lot of cities have financial problems that don't make the headlines. The county (because let's face it, the town I live in is like 2-3 blocks) I live in made a big deal about funding the community college, over some deal made back in the 70's, we're talking $60k which would be used to hire custodial employees. They're just as petty and crooked here as anywhere else. Of course, I don't all that was the point that you're trying to make. While selling real estate here is good right now, people haven't felt the impact yet. A lot of people were upset when the Governor closed bars, restaurants and hair salons, you thought these people had their big screen TV's taken away, or someone stole a kidney and hey I get it. Not because I need a haircuit, but I get that these people who work at those places and run these businesses are screwed. I do think that everyone should have been bailed out and that the mortgages and rent should have been frozen. Frankly, I think the cost of losing 30% of small businesses across the country is going to be devastating and will take probably more than a decade to recover from....I think it would have been cheaper to simply bail people out and extend payments on everything. Instead, we get political theatre.

(09-03-2020, 12:54 AM)Emiliano Wrote: But for a city who depends on tourism, office workers, night life... this is a long road ahead of us before anything ever feels like normal again. Which it's hard to believe it ever will. But then again, I mean, what effect did the 1918 / 19 Flu really have on the 1920s and beyond? I am sure we will reach a point where we will all forget about this too. 

It should not take the complete and utter devastation and loss of life that it took NYC, for the rest of America to understand the gravity of Covid. Not because we are better than you and your area. But because we are an American city, and it happened here, before it happened to elsewhere. So let us be that terrible warning of the effects of this virus on any location that is not prepared to handle it.  

Some of you did not live in NYC during the spring of 2020 and it shows. Sadly. 

It is a difficult conversation and people do have differing opinions, and as good, compassionate people we want to be careful and aware of how we come off to people who think the opposite of us. But you know, if anyone has a problem with what I've said, let them argue with me. And I wont get angry or anything. I'll just have a panic attack and cry.

Because that's the kind of shit that living through the spring of 2020 in NYC will do to a person.

Nope and unfortunately people didn't take heed and now states like Florida, Texas, California and Georgia get to live the same thing, except their governors (haven't heard much about CA) aren't really doing anything. If anything, I hear that Florida is messing with the counts, all political crap and lies. What a shame it is that we have politicians try to sweep their inactions (that caused loss of life) under the rug. I really wonder how many of these politicians have a conscience...or a spine for that matter.

Anyway, don't fall into the trap believing that the world is vile and gray, there are plenty of good things we, as humans, tend to focus on the bad stuff....the news channels and our pop-culture reflect that quite often.

My favorite come back to the whole NYC is dead thing, is that even if it were, real New Yorkers would just ignore it and step over it on our way to catch the train. 
I mean honestly let the rich transplants go back to where they came from. If anyone knows anything about nyc, they'd know the resiliency is a symbol of this city more than the empire state building or statue of liberty ever will be. Back to the very beginning, we don't stay down for long.