Yaoi (Boy Love :3)

[Pix]

When you said "aimed at women" do you mean lesbian or just at the female demographic as a whole? A female version of Yaoi is Yuri if that's what you're inquiring, and I actually do like the few that I've come across :redface: . I actually like more of the fluffy romantic stuff with a bit of angst, so it doesn't really matter to me

I meant aimed at women in general.

And interesting enough The L Word (a show by and for lesbians) had a big following by straight women, some of whom claimed it made them question their sexuality. Most men (of any orientation) gave the show a pass (and YT vids featuring TLW sometimes get cranky comments by men who had hoped for something different), but I know a couple of men (I think both were straight) who enjoyed it as much as any lesbian (and they cared enough about the characters that I know it wasn't just for the lesbian sex scenes :tongue. I'm not sure but I think I may have gotten another straight guy into it as well.

Still, some media aimed at women gets many male fans as well. For example, nearly every man I've known enjoyed White Oleander (though I read an Amazon review years ago that claimed any male who liked it had serious problems, though he didn't explain why). And in reverse the Terminator has appealed to a great many women (including one I know who normally can't stand violent movies, but she watched that one and the 2nd one over & over again while she knits).

And that aside, romance, porn, and erotica aimed at men and women tend to be very different. Personally, I'd rather watch heterosexual porn made for women than lesbian porn made by men for men. It's not just the genders involved, it's the entire presentation and package. I'm guessing by the sound of it that you would probably find bara less appealing than yaoi, though having never actually seen bara myself I don't really know how it compares and contrasts to yaoi.

[Person66]

Where can you get Yaoi or even shonen for that matter. In New York City they have stores that sell manga but I'm only familiar with one large one. How do you pronounce Yaoi phonetically. How do you get it in Bermuda? How interesting.

[Gizzie]

Nick9, I think your friend being a foreigner already makes people stare, along with the holding hands in public thing too. I think people will stare at even middle aged or older straight couples holding hands. Somehow, public display of affection is limited to a certain age group…

As for gay bars in Japan, the thing is, we don’t have “bars”.
Instead we have a restaurant/ bar called “Izakaya” and you usually go there with a bunch of friends and stick to that group of friends. (No interaction between customers)
So that’s one reason why you won’t find gay bars outside of Tokyo.
You will only have one normal club per prefecture if any once you step out of the metropolitan area. (Tokyo, Yokohama, Osaka, Fukuoka etc)
Most gay hangouts are located in Shinjuku 2chome.
There are others too, but that is so local and secretive you have to really know your way around to get to those places…

And places for kids to reach out about sexuality, we have none even for straight kids.
Sex and sexuality is not something that is openly discussed.
We skim through it in sex education (maybe one class long) and that’s it.
I don’t even remember being educated about safe sex.
I do know though, that there are many online support forums that are for teenagers.
Maybe because of the Yaoi, Yuri in manga, the younger generation usually has no discrimination against homosexuality.

I think this sorta overlaps with OrphanPip's post, but the interesting thing about Japan is that until after the Edo period, orgies, homosexuality etc was perfectly normal and accepted.
The western influence was what made the Japanese stop bathing together in public bathrooms, having orgies、buying young male actors as dates etc.
We don’t have a religion against homosexuality like the Christians claim, and really, there is no real basis for the Japanese to be homophobic.
I actually think japan is one of the kinkiest and sexually open cultures around (just look at the hentai/ Lolita etc genres in porn).
The negative reaction is more based on improper displays of sexuality in public.

Here are some interesting businesses (a little in connection to the original topic here too)

Butler services (girls dressed as butlers. Many are bi or lesbian girls catering straight, bi and lesbian women, as well as men. Service content is non sexual, pseudo date)
http://bar.cosme-boy.com/

Cross dresser café and restaurants
(straight bi and gay men dressed as women catering straight, bi and homosexual customers)
http://newtype.ms/ (has cross dressing lessons)
http://bar.cosme-boy.com/ (based on Edo period young male actors cross dressing often finding rich male patrons)

i think this is what OrphanPip was trying to say when pointing out that " the focus isn't really on homosexuality, but on the play of the inversion and the delight this provides for the audience".

Where as on a contrast, manga like Ooku; the inner chambers touches a little more on homosexual relationships as a man and man relationship, not man and man dressed up like a woman and having a hetero relationship.

In fact, many Fujoshi (BL loving women) are often disliked by the gay community because they over fantasize homosexuality, and when you shove a real gay man in their face, they dont know what to do about it.

Overall though, I think whether it is just a new deviant entertainment for people or not, having homosexuality there and not seen as taboo helps straight people to ease into and accept the larger culture too.

[DarkDaisuke]

I watch a good bit of it and read as well. Favorite of mine is Junjou Romantica

[OrphanPip]

@Nick9, ya that's essentially what I was trying to say.

For those interested in gay culture in Japan, there's an old film from the 60s, Funeral Parade of Roses, that gives an intriguing look at a strange infusion of 1960s American counter-culture and Tokyo gay/drag culture of the time.

Edit: There's also Yukio Mishima's Confessions of a Mask which is a semi-autobiographical story about a closeted homosexual during the Imperialist early 20th century Japan.

[Nick9]

Thank you very much Gizzie, that is really interesting.

Yeah, they said, they had been in a bar (this was what they called it) once, because someone local guy recommended it. The bar was a room on a third floor of a building with no sign at the entrance of the buiding. I guess that is what you meant by "There are others too, but that is so local and secretive you have to really know your way around to get to those places…"

They never had guts to pay for a hotel room with double bed. In fact they paid for two rooms all the time.They were just not sure, what the reaction of the hotel staff would have been. What would your guess be? If not the double bed, would one room with two beds be okay?

I think the Internet is really helpful. I guess it could have been difficult for gay/lesbian to find support or partners in the society this closed (I mean not only in Japan)

Thanks

[Nick9]

@Nick9, ya that's essentially what I was trying to say.

So, when watching it/reading it, do you sometimes think, this is crap/a het woman fantasy, that could never happen between two guys?
God, I think I need to read it myself. I have never been into this, but well never say never :biggrin:

I just wonder if it is obvious that it was written as fantasy, or if it is realistic.

[Sylph]

OrphanPip & Gizzie :o . lol

I kind of already knew about the play on the parody of M/F relationships in Yaoi (and sometimes Yuri), and that's what I think the point of it was in the beginning.

Let me explain.

From what I've read, Yaoi was originally created, by women(straight usually), in a parody of Heterosexuality, especially of the "straight" animes. Not to be funny, but to shed light on a topic/issue, that not many people were very aware or were reluctant to be aware of. I'm not Japanese (I'll leave that to Gizze :p ), but I was always under the impression that, in a tradional family, the sons were to marry and carry on the family name and that homosexuality was forbidden, especially in rich families. This is probably not how it actually is/was, but if it was, than it makes sense, because otherwise, a very Noble bloodline would die with the last son, who is homosexual, unless he marries and has a son himself.

I also think that, because men were reluctant(and still are globally) to be expressive, especially about sexuality (especially in Japan, as Gizzie says), Women did. Women being naturally expressive, would of course over dramaticize M/M relationships, because how they see men & gay men especially, is different from how a man sees himself and other men, gay or straight. The opposite gender always views each other differently, because we obviously don't have insight personally on how the other works on a systemic level.

This is why a good deal of straight men believe lesbians are "cock-hungry nymphos" that can't wait to get it on with each other and then when he introduces himself to the equation, they'll jump on his dick. This is how a man thinks, and because he thinks that way, that's how it must be, taking into account nothing of how an actual lesbian relationship works, sex or no. Similar for women, they believe all feminine gay men are flaming queens that going shopping with them for Prada handbags and are bottoms, just because you look like a duck, quack like a duck, so we must be a duck.

A woman is going to write her point of view on how a M/M relationship works, based on how it would work with her, so yes, it's a slight inversion. But they don't think the same way a man would, let alone a gay man, so as a woman, she's going to be penetrated, therefore, whoever she writes as "the woman" will also be the one to be penetrated (Uke). Again, since she doesn't think like a man or understand personally how men work, she's going to write "the man" as the stereotypical "male" with attributes, equivalated to being a man.(Seme)

I personally find nothing wrong with Gender Roles, but I don't think it's like the 1800's when women were barefoot and pregnant at the stove and men were out making the money for the house and family, Gender roles. People assume that, just because your flaming hot, that you're the bottom or if you lift 200lbs weights and chew iron nails, you're the top. It's not always this way. I think the problem people have with gender roles, is that they are afraid of people catorgorizing them into a specific role in the relationship, or just in general, that they don't like or want to be in, which is fine. But Yaoi doesn't necessarily limit a character to a specific role, but rather shows diversity within the character's persona.

Example; The Yaoi Sukisho(that I posted earlier) has a butch/femme theme. Simple? No. The Feminine male in this Yaoi has long hair, that's even pink("girl colour") and has a soft voice, but isn't very "feminine" outside the bedroom. The other main male character, who's the lover of the feminine male, is portrayed as a typical male, with short hair, that's blue("boy colour") and is very "normal" . Now their alter ego's kind of mess with their personalities, but the pink haired one is very vocal and domineering, while the blue haired one is also vocal, but very submissive when the pink haired one becomes aggressive.

But their alter egos are complete mirror reflections. The Pink haired one becomes womanly and the blue haired one becomes even more masculine, even so much that his voice deepens.

I think this shows the mix of masculinity and feminity in all of us, rather than just the inversion or parody of heterosexuality. Feminism and Masculinism is a whole-nother ball game, but people try to connect it to these Yaoi, when in actuality, it has nothing to do with it really. So one is always the "girl" or the guy? It doesn't mean that all gay men have to be this way. I've seen Yaoi where some guys are Versatile and not always in a specific gender role.

I think that a play on sexual or normal gender roles in not an inversion, but rather a progression. And after all, we all know who we are, what we like and how we want to live our lives and perceive/be perceived by others, so it shouldn't matter how some choose to express themselves.

Love you

[Nick9]

Odi, thank you for taking the time and make it clearer for me

[Sylph]

Odi, thank you for taking the time and make it clearer for me

You're welcome