Question about spirituality

[princealbertofb]

Archubbycub, I can relate totally to your experience... It is not God that I blame though. I believe that as we go on in life our views change as we get more and more 'disillusioned' or lose that innocence that once made it easy to believe this or that. Pix's example of Santa Claus is one of them, I suppose.

I think it is normal for you to feel resentment for the church because after taking in all the homophobic bullsh*t that some of the churches spew out, it becomes difficult to believe that we've been able to be such fools for all this time.

However, we shouldn't through out the baby with the bathwater here. Some of the Christian teachings (no doubt Jewish ones and Muslim ones and Buddist ones etc.. as well) make a lot of sense and they make you the man you are today, a man with 'character' in the old sense of the word.

When the church starts saying things that we don't believe in, or that we know to be wrong and wrongful, that's the time when doubt sets in, as it seems to be in you at present.

This is a time to make your own idea of what God means to you and what spirituality means to you. Is it a God of love, or is it a God of rejection? If the latter, then why would you worship him / her / it?

What clinched this change for me was when I finally realised that I could be a sexual person. I was a fairly late bloomer and did in quick succession a gay relationship (short lived) and a straight one (in which I remained for four years -- we broke up for no reason related to us falling out with each other but due to circumstances). But I who thought I'd save myself for marriage, and was until then a virgin, had stepped over the boundaries. The vicar came to have a talk with me after church one day, and fairly chased me away with his words. I thought he was vehement, vindictive and completely wrong. Of course my new love relationship was distressing my mother and she must have told him so. Little did it matter that my younger brother was gay and having gay relationships, and that my elder brother had had countless girlfriends, that no doubt he had slept with. But he was not aware of those, I don't think. I was the virginal one, I was the one disappointing the 'community'.

That's when I understood that this had nothing to do with spirituality. It was a social thing... just me not conforming to the 'social' norms of my church. This could only happen because other members of the church knew me and knew my life. Had I been a complete stranger, the vicar would not have said anything even if was 'living in sin', because he wouldn't have known, unless I or someone else told him.

As I saw it then, I was doing nothing wrong. I was in love and loving the person I loved, wholly. I was not living a sin, nothing worse than all the greed, rancour, hate that others might be practising on a daily basis. I realised that God, if he was love, would not reject me for such silly reasons as this social norm of virginity. But since it displeased the church, I started not going anymore. Once I'd started that, I found it more and more difficult to adhere to the liturgy and the routine of services in the Anglican Church, finding the words we were saying boring, inaccurate and potentially mindless or hypocritical. Had I realised, at that point, that I was indeed gay, it couldn't have been worse.

My now departed mother, bless her heart and soul, while striving to defend her two gay sons' rights in society and church, never found the courage, to her own great disappointment, to tell the successive vicars that she had two gay sons, when the vicar showed any kind of non-understanding or bigotry. Sad, eh?

[princealbertofb]

Also Archy, while we are doing church work dutifully, we start questioning why we are wasting our good faith and good deeds for a social community that doesn't want to understand and accept us as loving and dutiful people; Maybe we feel used, certainly wronged.

[zeon]

hello,
With me personally i gave up my religion when i went gay because i figured if god hates gays then he must hate me so to be honest if he doesnt when i die he can banish the preachers of hate and welcome in the majority but now i believe in spiritually ways as it makes more sense and warmth for loosing a loved one xx

[Genersis]

... I'm glad I didn't even go to a gay friendly Christian denomination because I'm the type who likes to read & understand and I wouldn't have been able to overlook the antigay passages of the Bible (just as I can't so much else, like the pro-slavery passages).
...

Actually, most of the liberal Christians i've conversed with don't overlook the passages so to speak.
They tend to have very solid reasons for not believing such passages to be relevant today. Normally citing context, like pagan sex rituals, mistranslations of "abomination", punishment from God for idol worship, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed because of a lack of hospitality ETC.

Just sayin'.mile:

[Pix]

Actually, most of the liberal Christians i've conversed with don't overlook the passages so to speak.
They tend to have very solid reasons for not believing such passages to be relevant today. Normally citing context, like pagan sex rituals, mistranslations of "abomination", punishment from God for idol worship, Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed because of a lack of hospitality ETC.

Just sayin'.mile:

I've seen those and I support the efforts, but I never found them convincing, and I've never seen them ALL explained away. And there are other matters, too, for example it's implied that had the men of Sodom instead raped the virgin daughters of Lot instead then the city would've been spared God's wrath. And then, of course, there's the whole thing of why was everyone (as opposed to the mob outside as I just don't believe that every man in the city showed up save Lot, that's too silly) destroyed but Lot (who offered his own virgin daughters to be gang raped!) and his family? And there are other things that make me go WTF and not think of the Biblical god as loving or even sane.

But I appreciate the revisionism. I just know it wouldn't have worked for me as I took a deeper look at it (especially with the aid of such books as Strong's Concordance).

[LateBloomer]

I haven't read the other replies (not out of disrespect, just because I'm short on time).



Briefly: A church is a community of men (sinners). That means they make mistakes. Forgive them. Forgiveness in general is very empowering.

Secondly: God = Love. What more do you need to know?

Finally: I see myself as a "conduit" for God's love. If I shun God I cannot love. This is my belief. In the past I believed differently and I was incapable of love then.

Good luck.


[Edit: One more thing, you're probably not angry with God, but with the way some men USE GOD. Get it?]

[Rikki]

It seems natural to feel resentment towards something that's been a big part of who you are (religion) but which has also been in conflict with another big part of who you are (attraction to guys). I'm glad I got over the conflict fairly early (by dropping religion altogether in high school). I never became a "strong" atheist (outright denying the existence of God), but rather I felt the whole argument was moot. We're all in this together, and bickering over which god is the right god or which dogma is the right dogma seems like a waste of time. It won't change what's happening here on this unfathomably tiny rock we call home. I like to think that whatever's going on behind the scenes is way more amazing (and, perhaps paradoxically, much simpler) than anything that any one faith has posited. So yes, the resentment is understandable and I know of plenty of people who bear it. But know that you have the power to make your faith your own, and it will be as valid as any other (subjectively it will be more valid because it's YOURS). You don't have to take anyone else's shit, because in the end, all of our shit stinks. And that should bring us together, not divide us. :biggrin:

*gets off of soapbox*

*puts you back on soapbox*
*applauds*
MORE MORE!

[archubbycub]

I haven't read the other replies (not out of disrespect, just because I'm short on time).



Briefly: A church is a community of men (sinners). That means they make mistakes. Forgive them. Forgiveness in general is very empowering.

Secondly: God = Love. What more do you need to know?

Finally: I see myself as a "conduit" for God's love. If I shun God I cannot love. This is my belief. In the past I believed differently and I was incapable of love then.

Good luck.


[Edit: One more thing, you're probably not angry with God, but with the way some men USE GOD. Get it?]

No I'm not really angry at God, more just disillusioned at the whole thing. Like I said earlier I really don't think this disillusionment stems from the fact I'm gay, rather that fact just sort of adds to the whole thing. I mean, all my life I've had it preached to me that God is love and he is a forgivin God, but the next words out of their mouths was Homosexuality is a sin and you'll go to hell for that! That has always seems just a little too hypocritical for my tastes! I would do my best to avoi the topic all together while I was doing church work, and not just because of the hidden feelings I was having towards other men either. There have been several times over the past few years I have considered converting to Buddhism. My friend who I've confided in about my sexuality is a Buddhist and she seems so much happier in life than I've ever been.

[LateBloomer]

No I'm not really angry at God, more just disillusioned at the whole thing. Like I said earlier I really don't think this disillusionment stems from the fact I'm gay, rather that fact just sort of adds to the whole thing. I mean, all my life I've had it preached to me that God is love and he is a forgivin God, but the next words out of their mouths was Homosexuality is a sin and you'll go to hell for that! That has always seems just a little too hypocritical for my tastes! I would do my best to avoi the topic all together while I was doing church work, and not just because of the hidden feelings I was having towards other men either. There have been several times over the past few years I have considered converting to Buddhism. My friend who I've confided in about my sexuality is a Buddhist and she seems so much happier in life than I've ever been.

People are stupid. Don't let them manipulate you. Do you have love in your heart? If yes, then you have faith. Don't let them weaken your faith (love) with their own fears and prejudices. That's their SHIT, that THEY have to live with.

I had a similar conversation, believe it or not, with a gay man who is an ex-priest.

He told me, "I don't know if how I'm living is right or not"...

...and my jaw dropped.

I told HIM,

"God MADE you.
God KNOWS you.
And God LOVES you."

There I was counseling a former priest about the nature of God's love. In Isiah, it says something like, "I knew your name before you were born."

YOU don't offend God.
People who JUDGE, offend God.
Who are THEY to judge what God created?

[cyoung112]

I too grew up religious and I remember a few points that have made me think a little. I still have held onto somethings. I do remember someone saying that there was a vast difference between religion and relationship. Religion is following rules. A relationship with God is what is important. It's your communication to him and that matters most. I have come to the point that Christians are very judgemental. They are the first ones to correct you or point out your "sin", even though they are "flawed" themselves, Maybe not out of hate, but because of their lack of knowledge and experience.

I also remember learning that God is sovereign and knows all. I sometimes believe that an all knowing and powerful God, that spoke light and there was light, is nowhere near as panicked about things as his church. A GOD THAT CAN DO ANYTHING!...WORRIED ABOUT THE WORLD!...hmmm makes me wonder. Sometimes I think he has way more compassion than you would think and more comapssion than people who claim to serve him. I recently read an article on CNN.com about "Homosexuality" and "other sins". It basically talked about "sins" that christians highlight while ignoring others. You should check it out. It was called something like: Will there be gays in heaven? Will there be fat people?

I'm with you, I can see how one could resent God, but I wouldn't let what other people are saying dictate what God feels about you. Despite the direction of my sexuality lately, I still believe and feel as though he still cares about me. I hope you hang onto your beliefs and don't become angry with him.