define being a man

[pellaz]

please define being a man:
Not along the lines of gender (which is a social construct), masculinity or femininity but the lines of having testosterone and same sex one night fling, dating, partnership.
"dragging sore feet through your door,
newly laundered from a hard night’s release, what is you?"

don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

[Sylph]

I'm a little confused Lazzy lol.

I think the ideology of "being a man" is full of holes...

Dads always tell their sons; "You gotta hunt[kind of outdated]/you can't cry/provide for the family/play a sport/treat girls with respect/Don't run from a fight"

In order to prep them to become a man. But these things have holes

>You gotta Hunt - What if the boy is blind or has another ailment?
>You Can't Cry - leads to serious emotional and mental health issues
>Provide for the Family - What if the woman/partner wants to provide or is a better one?
>Play a Sport - What if he doesn't like sports or just isn't good at them?
>Treat Girls with Respect - If he sees his mother wasn't treated right, he most likely won't treat them right either.
>Don't Run from a Fight - What if a gun is pulled on you, or something you have no control over will occur?

There are plenty of holes.

Being a man to me, is being someone who has good character. Everything else is just miscellanious. Part of what makes a person and person.

He can have all these things, but it would never make him a man, unless he has good character.

And then again, Humanity, as with most things, is flawed anyhow, so .

[mrk2010]

You gotta hunt? We ain't in the fuckin stone age bahahahahaha

[WheresTheLove]

Keep in mind that some people use "man" not to mean male, but to mean "adult" or "human"- which is flawed terminology nowadays. Apparently, it originally meant "human", but now we use it to mean "male". People in the past have told me to "be a man" and then I would yell at them not to use gender roles like that. And they'd get pissed off and tell me to stop bitching. Then someone else would step into the conversation and inform me that they probably meant to tell me to grow up or be respectful. And the the original mean people would confirm that they did. In reality, they weren't. They just told me to "be a man" because it's popular to tell people that.

In my opinion:
a)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that only men are expected to be honorable, respectable, etc. and that women aren't.
b)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that "man" can be used to mean "human", meaning that only men are considered true humans (which I know was true in some ancient cultures).
c)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that acting like an adult is acting like a male, and that women don't act like adults.
d)The phrase supports gender roles, which is an old-fashioned ideal that needs to die out.

I wish people would just say what they want me to be, instead of beating around the bush. Like say "be respectful", "act mature", etc. No more of this "be a man" bullshit. Okay, I'll be a man like daddy was. I'll beat my wife, get her pregnant, and leave her. Happy now?
(No, my dad didn't do that, he's a really nice guy, I was just giving an example of how someone could take that phrase the wrong way).

Also I hate the phrases "grow a pair" or whatever. It equates having balls to being tough or rebellious. I know women who are that than men. And I've even heard women use this phrase. Just stop. It's embarassing and degrading. We need to stop demeaning women like this.

[Sylph]

You gotta hunt? We ain't in the fuckin stone age bahahahahaha

Uh, excusez-moi, I did say kinda outdated :biggrin:. But remember, men of all ages have at some point or the other "hunted", not necessarily for animals or mates.

And even today, there are men, mostly in the country, who take their sons fishing and/or hunting to form a father-son bond and to help to make their son's into a "man" . As this was and is somewhat still considered to be a "manly" thing and the only way for "real men" to bond.

My Father takes his sons [myself included of course, though I dislike it] fishing off the coast of the island, which is in essence hunting.

It's funny until you really stop to think about the complexities of life and how nothing has really changed, even though everything has.

[Sylph]

Keep in mind that some people use "man" not to mean male, but to mean "adult" or "human"- which is flawed terminology nowadays. Apparently, it originally meant "human", but now we use it to mean "male". People in the past have told me to "be a man" and then I would yell at them not to use gender roles like that. And they'd get pissed off and tell me to stop bitching. Then someone else would step into the conversation and inform me that they probably meant to tell me to grow up or be respectful. And the the original mean people would confirm that they did. In reality, they weren't. They just told me to "be a man" because it's popular to tell people that.

In my opinion:
a)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that only men are expected to be honorable, respectable, etc. and that women aren't.
b)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that "man" can be used to mean "human", meaning that only men are considered true humans (which I know was true in some ancient cultures).
c)The phrase is insulting to women. It's saying that acting like an adult is acting like a male, and that women don't act like adults.
d)The phrase supports gender roles, which is an old-fashioned ideal that needs to die out.

I wish people would just say what they want me to be, instead of beating around the bush. Like say "be respectful", "act mature", etc. No more of this "be a man" bullshit. Okay, I'll be a man like daddy was. I'll beat my wife, get her pregnant, and leave her. Happy now?
(No, my dad didn't do that, he's a really nice guy, I was just giving an example of how someone could take that phrase the wrong way).

Also I hate the phrases "grow a pair" or whatever. It equates having balls to being tough or rebellious. I know women who are that than men. And I've even heard women use this phrase. Just stop. It's embarassing and degrading. We need to stop demeaning women like this.

Wow WheresTheLove, very valid points.

I agree it can be viewed as degrading towards women and this is exactly why I believe "being a man" is filled with many holes, just as humanity itself is .

But some people were just raised differently, and it's not their faults they think how they do.

If all their life, a boy was taught what the ideal personfication of "manliness", then he'll become, perhaps unfortunately, a representation of that ideal. For what does he know different?

Like myself, I was taught to be very open and fair, and now it's hard for me not to be. I regret when I get angry at people. Perhaps it's because I was raised by a single mother, my perspective is different from men here[Gayspeak] who were raised by both parents or a single dad.

I recently have come to see that my personality is very "clash-worthy", as I'm probably far too optismistic or a "goody-twoshoes", but it's how I was raised, It's hard for me to leave that at the door.

So we can't technically blame boys who grow into men who think like this, because it's how they were taught and raised.

However much we may dislike their notions and ideas.

But I do agree with you, to make a long statement short .

[Pix]

More than once I've heard a man say he wants a woman to be feminine or a woman say she wants her guys to be a man, but almost every single time I ask them to define that they can't save in the vaguest of terms, and they often won't even try. If I provide examples for them to comment on (for example, does she consider a chef to be like a woman since he spends so much time in the kitchen?) they tend to get disturbed and avoid me for awhile.

Btw, I know it's a stereotype that men who are fashion designers and hairdressers are gay, but plenty have been married to women, and some of the biggest names have been married to multiple women with children from each one.

[Pix]

one night fling, dating, partnership

I'm reminded of the most popular definition of "slut" at urban dictionary:

"A woman with the morals of a man."

:tongue:

[Pix]

As for showing women respect I find it incredibly disrespectful when a man calls another a "pussy" in a derogatory fashion, because that's saying how he sees people like me, bad and inferior, cowardly and weak. When I overhear a man say, "Don't be a pussy," I hear, "Don't be a woman." And then some guys are called a pussy because they treat women as women rather than as masturbation toys. Let's just say I'm not favorably inclined to guys I hear say things like that (which is to say plenty of guys).

I can also look favorably at guys who resist being manipulated by this term as it shows their bravery as being themselves despite the guy code (for example, they have no interest in competitive sports, they'd rather pursue their art, and do it despite the names they're called), and in some cases (like in strategically bypassing an enemy or making that enemy someone else's problem rather than resorting to blustering and/or fisticuffs) as meaning, "being smarter than a man." :tongue:

And I'd like to point out that many countries wouldn't have their independence (including America and Vietnam) had everyone fought like a man beating their chests and waging conventional war on battlefields. They did it by knowing when to retreat (ie, run away) and shooting from the shadows, particularly at the soldiers who were too stupid to "be a pussy and take cover."

Heck, I think Texas History is a good example of that, Sam Houston kept running away again and again (there were some mutterings of having him replaced, IIRC) but he was just waiting for the right time and when Santa Anna decided his men had to have their siesta because they weren't afraid of the Texian cowards Sam Houston struck and claimed total victory and independence for Texas. And no he wasn't a coward like Santa Anna thought because Sam Houston defied his military commanders and politicians in the US Army by refusing to obey the orders to massacre a native American tribe and instead defended them (effectively ending his military career), fought to liberate slaves and helping smuggle slaves to freedom, he openly mocked Christianity (which just wasn't done), defended the Cherokee after Texas won independence (almost completely alone), and when the South was gearing up for the Civil War he said it was a mistake (and that slavery was wrong) and didn't change his position when there were threats and attempted violent reprisals against him for his "lack of patriotism." So the guy was no coward in my book, he was actually far braver than most, he just had better sense than to try to change the world by beating his chest and asking who was man enough to come fight it out with him. And now that pussy who wouldn't fight Santa Anna on the battlefield (which would result in Mexico winning) or stand up for the South is now a revered hero in Texas, finally recognized for the truly brave and heroic soul he was (even if they tend to downplay his activities on behalf of Native Americans and slaves).

I also admire the pacifist Leo Tolstoy and consider him braver than most and he's done more to change the world than many (including the generals and politicians) who would dismiss him as a pussy, too.

[mrk2010]

Uh, excusez-moi, I did say kinda outdated :biggrin:. But remember, men of all ages have at some point or the other "hunted", not necessarily for animals or mates.

And even today, there are men, mostly in the country, who take their sons fishing and/or hunting to form a father-son bond and to help to make their son's into a "man" . As this was and is somewhat still considered to be a "manly" thing and the only way for "real men" to bond.

My Father takes his sons [myself included of course, though I dislike it] fishing off the coast of the island, which is in essence hunting.

It's funny until you really stop to think about the complexities of life and how nothing has really changed, even though everything has.

Not in this country hahahaha