We are considering Expatriating

[ligando]

for what? now everybody feels like the owner of the world to expatriate other? stupid thing.

[Pix]

My partner and I have tossed the idea of moving to Canada if the American people show approval for the Republican war on women, teachers, and gays in 2012 (while never a friend to any of these, Republicans have gone downright insane since 2010 and I know registered Republicans who agree with me and are also dismayed by it). Can the US become like Iran? If the Republicans win, then I believe yes. Remember, they're not about promoting limited government anymore (save for big business), they're instead focusing on hatred and the demand for theocracy (not that they'd call it that as politics is all about the right spin and what the military call PSYWAR).

That said, I consider Gore to be about as right wing as Bush (his film notwithstanding, and going by his actions I don't think he actually believes the message he promotes anyway) and I believe he'd have passed the USAPATRIOT Act as well. In any case it's certain that Obama has not only continued Bush's policies infringing on civil liberties both at home & abroad but increased those police state powers (despite his promises to do the opposite).

But I'm not sure about Obama being against guns as so far he's been pretty friendly to gun owners. Heck, he even undid Ronald "guns for everyone" Reagan's ban against guns in national parks. And he's been amazingly tolerant of the people who show up near where he speaks sporting sidearms (in some cases even literally toting guns like an AR-15) AND carrying signs about "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants" and other signs that could be called threats (and this when politicians have been gunned down, such as Giffords, or the rise in shootings inspired by the angry and often false reporting by FOX News, such as Byron Williams). Contrast with Bush and Rice who had people jailed simply for showing up with shirts critical of them (I can just imagine what they'd have done if instead of snarky shirts liberals had waved signs promising "2A solutions" and sporting firearms ). Granted, it's possible Obama is simply biding his time for his 2nd term to act on this issue (and thus his refusing to bring back the AWB when he had the support he needed to do it was simply a strategic move rather than he was actually telling the truth when he said he wasn't after our guns), though given how little appreciation many gun organizations have shown him despite his goodwill and tolerance (the ONLY gun control he passed as POTUS was actually backed by the NRA) I can see him throwing up his hands and giving up in even trying to be nice to gun owners.

If there is any one thing I wish I could convey to younger people today here in the US it would be the necessity of voting.
Whoever you feel comes closest to representing your voice, be it dem or rep, VOTE.
I truly believe that in this election more than in any other in my life time, actually getting out there and voting really does matter.

Why?

Seriously, what does a few extra votes for either major party gonna do? Ok, maybe in 2012, but generally speaking? How does this make things better, politicians more accountable, etc?

Personally, I don't think voting will be able to make a difference until we get a system closer to Australia (and some European countries). Not in the "mandatory voting" (personally I'd like it if one had to prove knowledge of candidates or issues before being allowed to vote on them which would probably bar over half the people who vote from voting ever again as well as forcing political channels like FOX and MSNBC to spend more time reporting rather than spouting crap & propaganda if they want their loyal viewers to be able to vote, though that said I'd be ok with convicted felons who did their time voting and am very open to the idea of lowering the voter age to 15-6), but in the ability to make first, second, and third choices (sometimes called "preferential voting" in which you make your first choice followed by others down to the "lesser evil" and the most "first choices" win) so that a voter isn't forced to choose the "lesser evil" which makes it all too easy for big business (and other special interests) to buy off politics and for politicians to break promises to the people (because what are you gonna do about them throwing you under the bus again, vote for the OTHER party?).

I'll vote in 2012, but it won't be about making America better, it will just to be to keep it from going to hell quite as fast. And I really don't see America (other than some dystopian hellhole as featured in the cyberpunk genre) lasting without some major improvements to the voting system. Unfortunately (but also unsurprisingly) both major parties (and the big businesses that own them both) are very much against reform, and thus so are their puppet media machines, so that making these reforms is an uphill battle. And did you know that there are people fighting for these reforms? I know because I volunteered to help with one such group years ago trying to get a measure passed. The media doesn't report on them because frankly those who own the media (the same people who own your "choices" of Republican & Democrat) don't want you to know about it. It's not about keeping you informed, it's about keeping you jumping through the hoops.

Even staying informed (when people who watch The Daily Show are LITERALLY more informed than people who watch CNN!) is a challenge these days, and I literally find it better to go to foreign media sources to learn about what's going on in the USA( as well as sites like the ACLU and Project Censored) and voting are temporary measures at best. I'd encourage people to vote, but it's not enough. We need major reforms to the system (including the electoral process) itself.

[Buffylo]

I'll vote in 2012, but it won't be about making America better, it will just to be to keep it from going to hell quite as fast.

^^^^^^^^^ that

[Matty71]

Leaving the U.S. has always been in my consideration: England, Germany, or perhaps Norway.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I say if you and your Husband have the opportunity you should try it.

Things are getting quite strange in this country and I am yearning to leave here myself.

[Beaux]

My partner and I have tossed the idea of moving to Canada if the American people show approval for the Republican war on women, teachers, and gays in 2012 (while never a friend to any of these, Republicans have gone downright insane since 2010 and I know registered Republicans who agree with me and are also dismayed by it). Can the US become like Iran? If the Republicans win, then I believe yes. Remember, they're not about promoting limited government anymore (save for big business), they're instead focusing on hatred and the demand for theocracy (not that they'd call it that as politics is all about the right spin and what the military call PSYWAR).

That said, I consider Gore to be about as right wing as Bush (his film notwithstanding, and going by his actions I don't think he actually believes the message he promotes anyway) and I believe he'd have passed the USAPATRIOT Act as well. In any case it's certain that Obama has not only continued Bush's policies infringing on civil liberties both at home & abroad but increased those police state powers (despite his promises to do the opposite).

But I'm not sure about Obama being against guns as so far he's been pretty friendly to gun owners. Heck, he even undid Ronald "guns for everyone" Reagan's ban against guns in national parks. And he's been amazingly tolerant of the people who show up near where he speaks sporting sidearms (in some cases even literally toting guns like an AR-15) AND carrying signs about "watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants" and other signs that could be called threats (and this when politicians have been gunned down, such as Giffords, or the rise in shootings inspired by the angry and often false reporting by FOX News, such as Byron Williams). Contrast with Bush and Rice who had people jailed simply for showing up with shirts critical of them (I can just imagine what they'd have done if instead of snarky shirts liberals had waved signs promising "2A solutions" and sporting firearms ). Granted, it's possible Obama is simply biding his time for his 2nd term to act on this issue (and thus his refusing to bring back the AWB when he had the support he needed to do it was simply a strategic move rather than he was actually telling the truth when he said he wasn't after our guns), though given how little appreciation many gun organizations have shown him despite his goodwill and tolerance (the ONLY gun control he passed as POTUS was actually backed by the NRA) I can see him throwing up his hands and giving up in even trying to be nice to gun owners.


My dear, I can tell that you have actually been paying attention. I can find no argument with anything in your post, except perhaps for the Quayle remark, and that is only because I know the man personally and have a great deal of respect for his intent, lacking however much credence to his methods (which I have told him). Really he isn't a bad person, he just has the kind of faith in the system that only privilege from birth can accommodate.

Why?

Seriously, what does a few extra votes for either major party gonna do? Ok, maybe in 2012, but generally speaking? How does this make things better, politicians more accountable, etc?

Personally, I don't think voting will be able to make a difference until we get a system closer to Australia (and some European countries). Not in the "mandatory voting" (personally I'd like it if one had to prove knowledge of candidates or issues before being allowed to vote on them which would probably bar over half the people who vote from voting ever again as well as forcing political channels like FOX and MSNBC to spend more time reporting rather than spouting crap & propaganda if they want their loyal viewers to be able to vote, though that said I'd be ok with convicted felons who did their time voting and am very open to the idea of lowering the voter age to 15-6), but in the ability to make first, second, and third choices (sometimes called "preferential voting" in which you make your first choice followed by others down to the "lesser evil" and the most "first choices" win) so that a voter isn't forced to choose the "lesser evil" which makes it all too easy for big business (and other special interests) to buy off politics and for politicians to break promises to the people (because what are you gonna do about them throwing you under the bus again, vote for the OTHER party?).

I'll vote in 2012, but it won't be about making America better, it will just to be to keep it from going to hell quite as fast. And I really don't see America (other than some dystopian hellhole as featured in the cyberpunk genre) lasting without some major improvements to the voting system. Unfortunately (but also unsurprisingly) both major parties (and the big businesses that own them both) are very much against reform, and thus so are their puppet media machines, so that making these reforms is an uphill battle. And did you know that there are people fighting for these reforms? I know because I volunteered to help with one such group years ago trying to get a measure passed. The media doesn't report on them because frankly those who own the media (the same people who own your "choices" of Republican & Democrat) don't want you to know about it. It's not about keeping you informed, it's about keeping you jumping through the hoops.

Even staying informed (when people who watch The Daily Show are LITERALLY more informed than people who watch CNN!) is a challenge these days, and I literally find it better to go to foreign media sources to learn about what's going on in the USA( as well as sites like the ACLU and Project Censored) and voting are temporary measures at best. I'd encourage people to vote, but it's not enough. We need major reforms to the system (including the electoral process) itself.

My dear, I can tell that you have been paying attention. Taking your post as a whole I completely agree, with only two caveats: Quayle is actually a great guy who means well (I know him personally), his predominant flaw is that he sees the world from the kind of rosé colored glasses that only priveledge can purchase, but he DOES mean well. Secondly, though I would much prefer a true democracy vs. the electoral democracy we are currently burdened with, I do believe that voting is important. So very few Americans actually vote that the minority (ie. the Christian Conservatives) who do, rule the country. If everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE) actually voted, we would see a revolution in this country. That belief, the belief that your vote doesn't count, is what keeps the "moral majority" in power, which is precisely why public figures do nothing to encourage voters to go to the polls.
I will vote for Obama. I do not agree with him on every position, similarly to how he doesn't agree with the Democratic Party on every position, but I do believe that the Dems come closer to my hopes for the future than the GOP. So I will vote, and I will pray, and if need be (to protect my family) I will stand beside my husband and expatriate.

[East]

I will vote for Obama. I do not agree with him on every position, similarly to how he doesn't agree with the Democratic Party on every position, but I do believe that the Dems come closer to my hopes for the future than the GOP. So I will vote, and I will pray, and if need be (to protect my family) I will stand beside my husband and expatriate.

I am not a Democrat...I am an Independent Liberal...closer to Green Party but none of my views line up enough with any party so the term Independent fits me well. I know alot of other Independent Liberals (birds of a feather:biggrin and we were EXTREMELY upset with Obama from Day One....I wanted him to borrow Nancy Pelosi's Balls for just a week...but he won me over with his record on gay rights and how many gay people he has included in Washington....and he won me over slowly with his intelligence and thoughtfulness. Obama was initially my last choice...Hillary Clinton and Dennis Kucinich were my first (and only) choices.

I hate Obama Care but NOT for the same reasons Conservatives hate it. Hell...the plan we have now was the damn Republican Plan from a few years back so the protest is kinda funny but since the Republicans have moved so far to the right they don't even recognize it was their idea. The cornerstone of the liberal plan was PUBLIC OPTION and he threw that under the bus to please the Republicans who hate him and could care less what he proposes because they no longer legislate...they just say NO...

...so starting from the day he announced he supported gay marriage I am contributing to his campaign regularly and of course voting for him. I am so grateful for the people before me who stood up so I would have a chance and I owe it to the people behind me who might have a chance for full equality under the law., I don't agree with Mr Obama on alot of things but EQUALITY is something I feel very strongly about and even if it was a token to fire up his liberal base who might not have otherwise shown up at the voting booth...I am good with it.

[Buffylo]

If I could move to the remote highlands of some wooded country, with just a rifle (ammo of course), and some hand tools; living off of the land..... man what I wouldn't give for that...

[James]

Life's tough choice's, "my country right or wrong" has long since been buried. That is a good thing, Keeping politicians responsible for their actions needs to be addressed constantly, there are groups who do this that I support even with my meager resources. As I read the latest info about each party, I know changes are ahead, how we deal with them, turn and run, bury your head in the sand, or push back by every legal means at your disposal. The only situation I would totally fear is martial law which suspends the constitution until whatever situation that warranted it is over, James

[Buffylo]

Life's tough choice's, "my country right or wrong" has long since been buried. That is a good thing, Keeping politicians responsible for their actions needs to be addressed constantly, there are groups who do this that I support even with my meager resources. As I read the latest info about each party, I know changes are ahead, how we deal with them, turn and run, bury your head in the sand, or push back by every legal means at your disposal. The only situation I would totally fear is martial law which suspends the constitution until whatever situation that warranted it is over, James

Martial law is never a good thing. The mainland United States has never been invaded in the past 2 CENTURIES! If the Government were to enact martial law, we would be screwed. that would mean the people were the enemy. we do not want to be the enemy under martial law.

[Blue]

I'm with you Buffylo, and as close to that as is practical right now. If things get worse, my home will go off grid so fast your head will spin. Yes it's paid for, lock, stock and barrel - no mortgage, no rent and the taxes are paid for at least the next 20 years even if I don't work at all during that time. I'm on grid by choice, cut three wires and I'm off and under my own power 100% (Internet, TV, Phone) Electricity is already off grid solar and a small water turbine in the river.

I live amid great hunting and fishing areas, have a half acre garden the could easily become a full acre, raise hogs and chicken and, could add sheep, goats or a steer or two. And, yes, I have more than enough guns and reloading supplies to last the rest of my life should it ever come to that.

No I'm not a doomsday preper, but I am very much a survivalist and, though I really don't expect the worst case scenario in my lifetime, I won't be taken by surprise if it happens. I'd prefer to keep the modern luxuries I have, but they are just that, luxuries and, if need be they will go.

It will be a lot smaller of an adjustment for me that for many, if the worst happens, and even now it affords me the privacy and peace of mind few can enjoy today. If it comes to it I need just 75.00 US per year to live with only loosing phone, TV and internet. I'd give up foods I cannot grow or forage locally, salt, sugar, flour, dairy and, the like but, it wouldn't drastically alter my life. (have to pay the property taxes as long as the government is around enough to need even that.)

As it is now, for me there is no good choice in this election. Taxes, Obama Care, lose my gun rights but keep gay and minority rights, or gun rights, lower taxes, smaller government and loose gay and minority rights. I will vote for Romney because I feel he will do less damage to health care, the economy and gun rights than Obama would as an incumbent.

Yes I know that's sacrificing a part of who I am for another part of who I am but, as hard a call as it is to make, for me it's the lesser of two evils. I can take not getting married, even being denied some things over having my ability to both protect myself and survive threatened, and I can deal with having to be more discrete about being gay better than I can deal with the further collapse of our economy and more of the government pretending to know what's best for me and trying to take care of me in ways I do not want to be taken care of.