Spelling???

[princealbertofb]

While I don't always understand what people are talking about in text script (I shall definitely have to go over all these postings to read up and check what people have said) I still find the written word amazing.

However, it's not just proper spelling that makes discourse clear, it's also the vocabulary used, the neatness of the grammar, of course, the right use of words for what they are meant to mean (or when their meaning is deliberately changed, then it is for the reader to understand that it is deliberately used in an inappropriate context to mean something else), the proper use of pronouns and good use of linking words and argumentational (made that up, I believe) words. It's a lot to master in fact, in any language.
Then there is nuance, innuendo, reading between the lines, which is why we need lawyers and courts, I suppose, to judge on things which may be / may have been misunderstood by two conflicting parties...

The richness of the Internet world is that it provides us all with far more to read than was ever published before. That way I get to read you, gentlemen, when I would probably never have got as much as a postcard in days gone by... Now we can share opinions, ideas, questions, philosophy, politics, religious matters, our GAYNESS, gaiety, homosexuality, queerness, at our heart's content. That would never have been possible only a few years ago. Of course the younger set might not realise this, because they were born in it, with it, around it, next to it, feeding on it, etc... but how many people actually used their writing skills before? How many people actually read before? Now I can read what a Sudanese or a South African have to say and we can all be enriched by this novel experience.

I agree, up to a point, with Enigma, that the Press and national radio and TV should set the standard and "filter" a bit, because we don't want our languages to go to pot and end up meaning just anything and NOTHING... That IS the rub or the downside of this explosion of the written word.

In French, we have the word TROP (troppo in Italian, demasiado in Spanish, zu in German, te in Dutch ...) but that word has completely lost its original meaning now (the change came about some 10-15 years ago, I believe....) Now everything that is VERY + (adjective / adverb) is TROP + (adjective / adverb) in French for the younger generation, and they never seem to use a perfectly adequate word which is TRÈS. I hope they still understand it. Something that would have been TRÈS bien, or TRÈS bon only a decade ago, is now TROP bien and TROP bon (which still means TOO well and TOO good) not to mention TROP TOP or TROP COOL (which, although French is much less class conscious than English, still sounds rather vulgar and affected; especially if you add that annoying sound at the end of every sentence or word = "euh": eg TROP TOP-EUH! TROP COOL-EUH! Yikes!).

I find that a shame because while the language should indeed evolve, it's no use killing a perfectly ordinary and useful word just out of ignorance or for trend purposes... And that's just what happened, someone started using TROP for TRÈS as a gimmick and now TRÈS has virtually disappeared from young people's conversations. Some tv presenters and actors are definitely to blame for coining words (or rather expressions) using words in the wrong context. And in fact, if you really want to blame someone for such new uses, you could also blame the advertising industry, which always picks up on these things.

I know teachers teaching French are having a really hard time getting their pupils to make the difference between the various registers of language and to consider their proper use in the right context. Of course it wouldn't make much sense to write everything IN EXTENSO in a text message given the limited number of words/characters/letters and the fact that it costs you each time you just send a smiley miley: or a hello ...

I honestly don't think people have ever written so much as they do now. That can't be ALL bad, can it?

One of the words I often see misspelt on English speaking sites is AFFECT, replaced by EFFECT, not to mention THERE, THEY'RE and THEIR, or ITS and IT'S. If my English spelling is so good, it is because many words like EFFECT and AFFECT come from the Latin via the French and since we still pronounce all our vowels there is indeed a pronunciation difference between those two words and it is recognised. The presence of many non-stressed syllables in English (and their subsequent replacement with the SCHWA phoneme, which is the most common phoneme in the English language) makes it particularly difficult to recognise the differences between similarly sounding words (HOMOPHONES). That's when the context comes in to help. Imagine a badly defined context and badly spelt words ==> that will eventually amount to trouble and ultimately lead to total confusion.

(too loquacious on the subject, shut me up!!) PA

[wouldlikemuscle]

The trouble is that uni tests and stuff ARE far too easy nowadays compared to what the were years ago. The STUDENT might think they are hard but if fact they are mickey mouse things generally. The message from industry now is that unless you can spell, do math, and have a good standard of literacy then forget it and get a job bus driving. A good standard in all three is ESSENTIAL. No matter wether you are a student, graduate or post-graduate if you can't do any of these to a high standard then you are a liabilty to any company or organisation.

It is your FUTURE you are deciding so don't go boshing it up over your inability to so something. This is not a personal critique of ANYBODY just a plea that you maximise your chances to get where you want to be.

Woah Woah... STOP right there!!!

When I'd finished my A-Levels... which I found really hard and didn't do that well in... I read the sorta thing you're saying and I was absolutely PISSED RIGHT OFF about it.... ended up writing into the Mirror newspaper (coz I used to read that pile of crap) and my comments got published.

And how dare you say that tests are too easy nowadays. People are quick to judge that because the pass rates are getting higher, tests are getting easier. Where the credit that the students deserve... and just because more are passing doesn't mean shit really... Passing with E grades at A-Level will cause most people to lose their places at Uni. Oh wow, they passed, must of had it easy even though it has caused them to FAIL to get into Uni. No... it was a struggle for those students whose dreams are shattered because they didn't get the marks required... and to top it off... there's people going around sayin they had it easy!! How completely UNFAIR is that!!!

And to take it from another angle... what about those people with Dyslexia? Those comments would basically shun those people to the lowest jobs and I know many people with Dyslexia (ex gf was severely dyslexic) go to Uni and have my respect for doing so. Spelling and grammar aint everyone's forte.
Several people in my job have Dyslexia to a varying degree. One or two are quite high up the ladder... and its based on their experience and knowledge, not their spelling capabilities.

THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!! :mad:

[Hyde]

Like Shadow pointed out, spelling and grammar are both evolving to suit todays needs. In fact, a few weeks ago in Linguistics, we were studying how that within 10 years, capital letters will most likely not be used in everyday writing language because of TV advertisements , sending texts (Hmm, did you know 'texting' isn't even a word *sob*) and on line (online isn't even a word !) chat rooms.

I don't see why it really should effect anyone, in all fairness. You can't expect to join a forum / on line community and expect people to adapt to your writing styles.

Can I also point out, Enigma, whilst ranting about people not using correct spelling, I thought I would let you know that 'Uni' is not a word. It's 'university'. Thanks.
Also, College and University too easy?! What the hell, dude? Every night for the past 2 weeks, me and my friends have been staying at college until around 6pm to manage to fit all of the revision in and all of the coursework we need to complete. I'd like to see you try and get good marks in a Literature exam.

[Enigma]

Look I do see the points made by WLM and Hyde and others. But I am trying to put the view of the OTHER side. The people that want to employ. My contacts in industry say to a man that the standard IS far worse and they are going to crack down. If a job applicant comes along and fails a very stringent aptitude test then they go away empty handed. I do realise Hyde that uni is an abbreviation but is widely used.. WLM I don't want to upset anybody but even some academics say that courses are too easy now and that there are far too many applicants coming along with Mickey Mouse degrees expecting to walk into a job. [ I don't say tha any of you have Mickey Mouse degrees such a "Media Studies" etc but that is the knid of degree they DON'T want is it is a useless course] They have even had graduates that can't spell properly. All I am saying is that when you apply for job don't be sad if you get turned down for poor literacy. Students today I am told don't study for long enough. Apparently in the past they studied until late in the evening and still some of them failed. I have said my piece but I do worry for you lot if you think that life comes on a plate. You will learn the hard way which is a misfortune for all. How may times have you been turned down for a job and not told the reason or, if told, resent it. None of thes are MY opinions I am just being a mouthpeice for "Human Recources" [disgusting term] who are fed up with universities turning out below par material. I am sure you have ALL worked very hard to get as far as you have but that is not enough for the captains of industry now. They want their cake and eat it especially as it seems a recession is coming. DON'T pick at me for what I say I am just trying to give a warning that you face tough times.

P.S. As I have stirred up a ferrets nest and stepped on toes shouldn't this thread be moved to "Debates"

[Mark]

Enigma mate, its not your place to "warn" people. So dont.

To be fair ive not turned up to an interview and been turned down. So thats a pile of crap. :l. All these "acedemic" sources. Are any of them you? No. Its funny how on most university courses over 85% walk into a high powered job as soon as the course is completed.

Not to be funny at all but people like you do ruin the younger generation by saying "exams are easier" blah blah. And mickey mouse degrees?! I think you'll find all the degrees going have some reason behind them, and to me none are "mickey mouse".

Times change, we dont all write on pieces of slate with chalk anymore. New jobs have been made available. New qualifications are needed. Back in your day it was completely different, and to get a job would be easier, simply as you didnt have such high competition.

We may get degrees but to get the job its soo hard. The levels that people are gaining are extremely high.

This whole thread, what your saying is BS. You havent backed up one argument efficiently. You've seen the reaction off students, and mike which has recently passed, but still doing courses. How can you sit there and slate us all?

Well mr high and mighty, I dont think you've any university experience? How can you even comment. "Students don't study as much as they used to". What the hell is that?! Did you not hear hyde, staying to 6pm then I bet does alot more at home, I work until 2am quite alot of the nights.

Do you not understand uni? Fail one module, you get one chance to resit, before you start they take 30% off. So you cant gain full marks, fail it again you lose your place.

Sixth form. If I failed one exam, its over kicked out.

Enigma how do you think sites like this are made? Computer technology is improved? Oh lets see.. Do the youth have a big impact? Oh yes they do, the ones which cant spell.

How dare you even comment on the exams. Not being funny but your nobody of importance to that field. If exams are so easy, why dont the older generation stop complaining about hating their lives and go and redo exams?!

Uhh Enigma theres so much I want to say to you, but I wont. You've completely changed how I see you for one. If we are all so stupid, still failing our easier exams, why do you seek out to befriend us? Surely someone as interlectual as you doesnt want to waste his amazing mind on us.

Enigma before you reply again slating OUR achievements please stop and think. I mean if I personally was so dumb, only passing because exams are easier, how come Im clever enough to realise to stay away from men like you?

You actually make me feel sick. Students these day work as hard as they can to earn what they get. How dare you try to taint that. It sounds to me someone is bitter that they didnt get the chance we have, and jealous of what is being achieved, in that line of thought I advice you not to continue slating exams mate.

Get over it. Students work as hard as they can, and dont need old men like you blowing their confidence.

[princealbertofb]

It annoys me to see that this subject is creating such a "tit for tat" atmosphere on this board. Maybe we should try to find common ground for understanding? Maybe we are saying different things that are worth taking into account.

Hyde, the fact that you call Enigma 'Dude', whether meant derogatorily or just in a matey manner, shows a certain amount of disrespect in my opinion... you may not agree with me on this, but hear me out: this is how I read it and how I feel (and I'm not even concerned, so reading it as an outsider). It's not even a question of respecting someone's age because old people can say the most stupid stuff sometimes too. But it's a question of having or showing respect for anyone who will read you. Words can have a powerful effect (right use of the word, btw ) on people, which is probably why they say "the word is mightier than the sword". That, in itself, is an interesting notion.

So, ok, you're seventeen, if I am to believe your profile data, and ok you have other things to worry about than spelling, like your exams, but I would like to say here that how you write (not just what you write) is ALSO a sign of respect for your readers and (why not?) the reader who'll be correcting your exam papers soon. Why should it be fair to write properly for the exam correctors and not for other people who have to, need to, want to, would like to read you? That shows some other kind of ostracism. And it doesn't sound altogether reasonable. But I'll take your point that caring about spelling takes time (is time-consuming) and maybe you don't have that time. (however having proper tuition in something does make things quicker, easier and second-nature, like touchtyping for example)

I believe Enigma has a point in saying that being good at spelling is better than not being good at it, but one might add being good at ANYTHING will always be a plus. Maybe spelling isn't your forte, but then there is no reason to disparage those who can do it right. Otherwise I,for one, might get angered by the fact that you deny the value of my ability to spell fairly well. We're not talking about "pots calling kettles black" (=" l'hôpital qui se moque de la charité " i.e. people finding fault in others that they themselves harbour just as well) We're talking about people who know what they are talking about. The experts. We always need experts, don't we? LOL. It's all a question of common ground and understanding. You'll have to admit, to some extent, that being able to spell and write properly is an asset.

I think that language and language skills should not exclude, which is why I teach a foreign language. However, let's face it, the world today thrives on exclusion and selection, and that was what Enigma was pointing out (Also what Saltybeanz seems to be saying). You'd better learn now, while you're young because later it becomes more difficult. That's experience speaking. Later one might regret dropping out of this or that course, because if one had done it when there was still time, the energy, and the right environment,and also the capacities of the brain, it would have made things easier. A fairly common regret.

Maybe one of Enigma's requests is that everyone should try to make an effort on the boards of this forum to write 'as properly' as we can, so that reading can be made easier and be less of a hassle, and also to show that we do respect the other readers, whether fixtures or random readership.

I teach language and therefore I read lots of papers. Sometimes I despair at my pupils' spelling, because what it shows, apart from anything else, is some kind of difficulty in expressing themselves to the fullest and to express the most exact thought. Sometimes I simply don't understand what they're trying to tell me or write about, try as I may. And that grieves me. When people can't talk things out, they start quarrelling and then go into battle (arguments, divorce, secession, war, serial killing ??? ...).

We're not talking for this forum of a Tower of Babel where each person has their own "speak" and they are only understood by a few (the lucky / happy few?); we're talking of common ground, the ground from which peace and harmony emerge and grow, not wars created by ignorance or failure to understand the other party's motives and ideas ....

There are many jobs in today's world which are cut out for the literary, e.g. diplomacy, translating, law, trading, politics even (although, I know, some of us are wary of politicians, lol), public relations, public writing, insurance, advertising. teaching... Obviously, being literary-minded can be a professional asset, not something to be sneezed at, in my opinion ...

Of course, if one wishes to exclude, by all means, one can use one's own form of speech, which, presumably people of one's own age will understand better, since one shares that particular form of the language. (I had originally written this paragraph with YOU instead of ONE but it sounded too accusatory, so forgive me if it sounds a bit stuffy and formal. I wanted the idea to be conveyed more generally.)

But why wouldn't you want to include me or Enigma amongst your readership, Hyde, especially if you have a good point to make? Aren't these forums about learning, finding out, sharing?

Is the experience of a young person less valid than that of an older member? I don't think so. We all have different experiences of life and that's what makes these boards interesting to read. Not the insults and abuse, which quickly become boring and tedious. As long as what people say is not totally outrageous, we can surely get along.

The point I'd like to make here is that since we more or less implicitly agree that we're going to correspond in English (mostly), the English used here ought to be up to certain standards, lest you be not understood. I'm sure if I started ranting in French right in the middle of a sentence, I might as well be writing gibberish for those of you who don't know the language. It's just NOT fair either. If I do break out in French, it'll be to share something of my own culture and language with those to whom French appeals, of course, not to ostracise.

As for the difficulty of exams, I reckon we are putting more young people through school than ever before, which doesn't mean that the standards in some respects or subjects have not been lowered somewhat. What it does mean is that more people are getting an education, and if it isn't in spelling and literature, it could well be in something more important to the world tomorrow, like environmental studies, information technology or genetics...

Now, can we find a (formal enough) language register in which we all partake and which we'll all agree to use to some extent?

Thank you, Gentlemen. Je vous remercie, Messieurs.

PA

[princealbertofb]

For your information, if you're interested.
The Harrap's 21st Century Dictionary defines these two verbs thus:
EFFECT
verb (effected, effecting) formal to do something; to make something happen, or to bring it about.
more often used as a noun in language use.

AFFECT 1
verb (affected, affecting)
1 to have an effect on someone or something.
2 to cause someone to feel strong emotions, especially sadness or pity.
3 said of diseases: to attack or infect.
AFFECT 2
verb (affected, affecting)
1 to pretend to feel or have (eg an illness or emotion).
2 to use, wear, etc something in a way that is intended to attract attention ==> affect fast cars.
[15c, meaning 'to aim at': from Latin affectare to aim at, from afficere.]

[Shadow]

P.S. As I have stirred up a ferrets nest and stepped on toes shouldn't this thread be moved to "Debates"

To be honest I think this thread should be locked so as to prevent it spiralling further into chaos !

Since my initial post on this thread I have been watching it unfold with, initially interest, then concern, and then a mixture of sadness and shock to be honest ... and whilst I was not going to comment further, I think that at this point it might be warranted.

Enigma, I can see what you're trying to say, and I do believe that, from your perspective, you are trying to give what you believe to be heartfelt advice to our younger users, but what originally started as a rant about the standard of spelling today has picked up speed and propelled you into a position where you've said a few things in a manner which has, quite obviously, ruffled more than just a few feathers.

My advice to you is therefore to perhaps try and consider how people are going to take what you're saying before you actually say it, as even meaning well can hurt people if you present it in the wrong manner ...

I'm reasonably confident that you're not actually suggesting that any of our younger forum-users haven't put in the time or effort with any exams they have sat, are in the process of sitting or will be sitting (shortly or further off into the future), or that their course-choices are inappropriate, or that they don't deserve as good a shot at finding prosperity and reward professionally as well as personally, but, when you say things like (and I quote) (all emphasis is mine) :-

I blame this stupid system they use in school nowadays.

The growing trend now is to take no notice of CV's. They are not worth the paper they are written on.

The trouble is that uni tests and stuff ARE far too easy nowadays compared to what the were years ago. The STUDENT might think they are hard but if fact they are mickey mouse things generally.

Students today I am told don't study for long enough

I do worry for you lot if you think that life comes on a plate. You will learn the hard way which is a misfortune for all.

Then, whilst I'm sure you're trying to help people out, the manner in which you present your advice to them is doomed to p!ss them off ... and then by saying that wasn't your intention to upset anybody whilst simultaneously digging yourself in on this whole "exams are easier now than they were back in the day" issue, you're really walking down a dangerous path I fear as, to anybody that's recently experienced, or is currently experiencing the INCREDIBLE amounts of stress that exams can bring, your words are really quite doom 'n gloom, in that the message (which, as I say, I'm sure you wouldn't have intended to send) is that "Regardless of how hard you try, and how well or poorly you perform, the exams you're sitting are easier now than they've been before, AND it doesn't matter because nobody's going to want to employ you unless you can spell ANYWAY", which is ... I feel certainly, not a very positive or encouraging message to give to anybody, let alone people that might need picking up a bit ...

I personally wouldn't have a CLUE whether exams are easier, harder, or the same now as when I sat them, as so much time has passed since I sat my a-levels, I can barely recall the questions, let alone how stressed out I was at having to go through with them (I just remember that I was), but I do know from speaking with many of the lads around here (and elsewhere) that have been sitting exams just how much of a ballache it still is, and how much that little bit of encouragement means to them when they are facing what can, at times, seem like quite a mountainous struggle.

So I fear that, albeit unintentionally, you've actually kinda gunned down a lot of their hopes with your comments, so that's something I think you might want to consider.

I can still recall having lessons in how to do a CV whilst I was at school, because contrary to what your sources indicate, I myself have actively scrutinised and interviewed people for my department at work, and I always go through their CV's to see what their qualifications are, their background, their interests and so on ... so whilst I'm sure in some fields aptitude tests and similar are very valuable, I never bother with them - just send me to your CV and I'll decide whether I want to interview you ...

... and I'm sure I'm not the only one ...

If the young are led to believe that their best efforts are of lesser meaning because no matter how hard they try, they'll never match those that have gone before, what incentive does that give them to try at all ? And as Wouldlikemuscle and Twazzle have both said, if they then DON'T perform as well as they'd have liked, how then are they to feel ? Like dirt basically ... :frown:. That's not a message I'm happy sending them.

It's actually quite amusing to me that your thread began with you citing the poor quality of people's spelling these days, and has subsequently blossomed into a wonderful example of how it isn't just the spelling that appears to represent a bit of a gap between the generations ...

One thing that does remain true, however, is that the young do look to the old from time to time for guidance and counsel, so your position is one you should perhaps consider with care.

!?!?! Shadow !?!?!

[princealbertofb]

Never has university sounded so competitive... A little souvenir from the age of Margaret Thatcher???

[Hyde]

How does 'dude' show disrespect? *confused*

Also, I don't respect nor like Enigma, I'm not going to say I do like him, when I don't. However, 'Dude' doesn't show any disrespect in my opinion. If so, then I bully my friends on a daily basis.