So, there have been a few threads, recently, concerning religion, and I figured it'd be good to start a new thread specifically devoted to the discussion.
I know some are tired of the debate, so if that's you, then don't pitch in. Simple as that.
Atheists vs Theists
So this is how I'd like it to go:
(1)The person above will make their stance on the issue known, and why they'd come to such a conclusion.
(2) The person below them will attempt to make a valid argument proving the other person wrong, and why they are so.
and so one...
I'd like this to be something productively interactive, and not so much bashing the other person for their beliefs, if you can contain yourself... I'm not calling for political correctness, but less name calling, and more debating.
![[-]](https://gayspeak.com/images/duende_v3_local/collapse.png)
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My Stance: I don't believe in the existence of a supernatural presence or related phenomena in any sense whatsoever. Be it Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Buddha, Jesus, Allah, ghosts, spirits, witchcraft, voodoo, magic, zombies, etc...
Why: Because there's no logical explanation or existential proof that confirms the reality of such concepts. Because education and science continues to put such irrational thinking to shame when explaining the origin of life and the universe as we know it, despite the repetitious failing arguments that one defines the existence of the other, or that science is of the devil, and faith is all one needs, not proof.. etc...
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I do believe in a higher power and, it is my choice see that as a pantheon of my own choices, Great Spirit, Lady and Lord. Yes, it's a matter of faith, not religion. DO I have proof? None that non believers would accept. Things I have seen and otherwise experienced, yes but, others would say that is my perception and interpretation of those things and, they would be right.
But to be the devil's advocate so to speak, okay assume evolution is the case, science is right on that score, and right about how the universe came to be. Then tell me where did the first atom, ion or other particle of anything come from?
Even then it had to be created some time, somewhere, somehow by something or being entirely not of this universe. Is that the Higher power, however you choose to perceive it/them? Unknown, unexplained and likely unexplainable but something to think about none the less.
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I accept their may be a supernatural force in this world, but as religion has shown throughout the years, it has always been skeptical of science as it has known it will ultimately be it's downfall.
Where did everything come from, even if you accept evolution etc? I don't know, many people have theories but the important thing is they are attempting to answer those questions via proof. Just like they have dispelled many things throughout the years. The questions that have been answered by scientific proof in the last century alone is astounding.
Whereas religions have you always acting on faith, science is answering the questions and it is only a matter of time until the answer this next one most likely. So while they haven't yet, I don't believe that is any type of evidence of a god, it just means we don't have the answer yet.
Edit: The world is more than 6,000-10,000 years old. Science answered that.
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KJ1989 Wrote:Whereas religions have you always acting on faith, science is answering the questions and it is only a matter of time until the answer this next one most likely. So while they haven't yet, I don't believe that is any type of evidence of a god, it just means we don't have the answer yet.
I believe that a lot of religions will ask their followers to follow based on "blind faith" but that is not how Christianity works (although I must admit there are far too many Christians that think asking hard questions is a bad idea…I obviously disagree with that). There are very compelling reasons to believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, that He believed himself to be God, and that he rose from the dead. If these events are true, then it follows that there is a God.
My Stance: I believe that there is a God and I believe that God has entered time and space through the person of his son Jesus of Nazareth in order to redeem those who would accept Him as Savior.
Why: There is an astounding amount of manuscripts (more so than other works of antiquity) that document eyewitness accounts of Jesus life, and there are non-Christian historians (like Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Suetonius) that also verify the person of Jesus and the Christian movement accepting him as deity.
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I try to limit my belief systems and most important avoide other people's junk beliefs
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I believe in a superior power because i want to believe that there is justice. There is something waiting for you at the end. You're not just dying, thats so hopeless, i want to be able to do everything i ever dreamed of. And believe it or not; religion makes the world better because it pushes people to be good to eachother. There is something that makes you do good things while nobody's looking. I know the whole ''you're muslim or you're christian and you're wrong'' stuff and i think thats when you should remind to those people who say it that religion is personal.
My religion doesn't wants you to ''blindly do'' everything in it. Everything has a reason; its your problem to understand it and i want to state that a lot of people gets different ideas from the same sentence. And i am not calling anyone wrong but i believe God is not a human. In my religion it says he was a messenger that has chosen from humanity because we can only accept someone as a guider who we can associate with ourselves. Maybe animals has their own jesus'es too, who knows  About resurrection; many people believes that everybody has a soul, i don't think there wouldn't be any reasons for it to come back as long as the body works.
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Rumble88 Wrote:And believe it or not; religion makes the world better because it pushes people to be good to eachother. There is something that makes you do good things while nobody's looking.
Utter BS.
Christians want the 10 commandments posted everywhere but are breaking them both publicly and privately all the time, as just one example. And I'm not even going to touch on all the violence, injustice, evil and laws calling for the death of gays (as well as spreading misery in the world in other ways like denying condoms) done in the name of religion and at the commands of the various so-called holy scriptures, especially Christian and Muslim. If those 2 religions (and none other as toxic like them) didn't exist then I doubt being gay would be a big deal at all...and I bet we'd already be colonizing the solar system by now as both those religions have done far more to attack science than help it (though they lie and say otherwise).
And maybe we'd have a religion that focused on rape culture rather than denying gays their rights. Btw, I was not only menaced with rape by members of an antigay Catholic Church but when they gathered (in larger numbers than to celebrate Easter) to pray to pass a measure barring gay marriage they were rude, nasty people who blocked driveways and a neighbor lost 2 cats, one of which she saw run over by a good Christian peeling out of his parking spot to hit her cat. Praise Jesus. I guess killing cats must be a "good thing" since they did it right after praying in their church (even if many hate Satanists for killing cats, but maybe that's because they do it for Satan rather than for fun).
And another thing is that while I'm sure there are people who do good in private out of fear of God doesn't make them good people as good people do it JUST BECAUSE, not because they're scared of punishment...and there are other ways to instill that fear if that's what's required for them to do good, and as far as I can tell the vast majority of people do good (and also evil) because they fear GOVERNMENT, not God. If laws allowed gays to be killed with impunity we'd see a lot more lynchings here by the religious (I even met one guy who nearly cried because he felt so guilty at not murdering gays "as God commands" as he was scared of prison and losing his right to carry guns). Luckily we have the government to help check the evil inspired by religion...at least the luckier countries do. I'd sure hate to live in Iran where religion is so powerful, and as a direct result evil so strong.
And do you really think it's people like me who are lying, cheating, and being nasty? Certainly enough religious people do. Well guess what, the reason I have my gay family now is because I helped when the churches told them to fuck off. When that Catholic Church refused to clean up dog poo less than a foot off their property on the public sidewalk I cleaned it up for them. When I saw a buggy sliding down a parking lot about to hit a car I ran and stopped it. When a cat came to me sick I tried everything I could to save him and after that I made fliers advising the use of safer antifreeze. When I saw a nail sticking out at a park gazebo I went home, got a hammer, and went back to bend it so it wouldn't cut anyone. I picked up tacks someone (probably a Christian) left on a bike path. Instead of running over cats for fun I feed them. I'm one of the few people who stop to let pedestrians cross at stop walks when no one else would. In a city I saw an old lady trapped as no cars would let her pass and it was a Frisco light that wouldn't change unless someone pushed the button and I did. I give people a fair shake in my business deals. I've also volunteered to work with the homeless (and while I found Christians who did the same I also found they were being ordered to by their manipulative preacher who was embezzling and gaming the system for his own greed, all the while condemning gays and later trying to get my partner fired). In the Bible Belt I and other kids "adopted" old people in a hellish old folks home pretending to be related so that the foul Christians would stop leaving them in their own filth (which they did if they thought no one checked on them), but of course the Christians said I worshiped the devil.
And I could go on. Compare to all the people in prison who are devoutly religious (they went in that way, they didn't convert after conviction) and the religious leaders who are sexual predators targeting children. And the all too many who are cruel, and yet say it's people like me who are evil while they claim (what's one more lie?) to be the loving ones. I get really sick of hearing how religion makes people good when it most certainly does not...and it's not religion that's inspired my good deeds either.
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The way I see it the only rational stance is the agnostic one. There is no way anyone could ever disprove the existence of a divine entity, but that doesn't mean you should should believe in one. It would also be impossible to disprove the existence of a benevolent hippo who flies across the sky, so the lack of disproof is by no means an argument to support theism.
However, if you can't disprove something the only reasonable thing to say is "I cannot disprove <random entity x> but I see no indications whatsoever of its existence. I don't believe in it but I can't be certain that it does not exist."
Note: I do not believe in any kind of divine entity or any version of an afterlife.
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I'm an Atheist I'm not opposed to others views so long as they don't force their views on me. Such is my problem with organized religion. Which I find utterly detrimental to human progress and it is one of the leading causes of hate death and destruction.
Mick
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