Economically who is at fault?

[trialbyerror]

I read the post related to Wal-Mart last night, and that has prompted me to post this debate

Using the Chinese as an example

Is it the fault of the Chinese, who have grown their economy so extensively that it has shrunk the economies of other countries, including that of South Africa by taking advantage of the comparatively extremely low productivity of their target countries?

Or is it the fault of the "targeted" countries for having such low productivity (and consequentially disproportionate high labor costs), thereby affording the Chinese the opportunity to take economic advantage thereof?

Is it the fault of the Chinese for having a focused government backed market driven economy and buying raw materials such as iron ore, which has no value added, converting it into value added goods such as cars / ships / rail coaches

Or is it the fault of the very same countries for selling the raw materials to them without conversion into high value products?

Trial by error

[Vigilias]

Generally, the economic downturn was not helped when a number of nations began squabbling over the right to mine newly discovered minerals in the Arctic region back in 2007.

[Vigilias]

As for China, The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote!

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Fault? There is no fault in turning a tidy profit, unless in turning that profit you slay the goose that lays the golden egg.

The problem with China's economic direction is that eventually the nations it sells its crap to are going to go bust and won't be able to buy China's Crap anymore - then what will China actually have?

Funny thing about economics, there is really little economy in the business models that nations are using.


economy
noun 1. thrifty management; frugality in the expenditure or consumption of money, materials, etc.
2. an act or means of thrifty saving; a saving: He achieved a small economy by walking to work instead of taking a bus.
3. the management of the resources of a community, country, etc., especially with a view to its productivity.
4. the prosperity or earnings of a place: Further inflation would endanger the national economy seriously.
5. the disposition or regulation of the parts or functions of any organic whole; an organized system or method.

All economic systems in place and used today are all about growth, and consumption of as much resources as possible. This is not economy, economic - its insanity.

Both sides are at fault - but then both are only in it for short term greed satisfaction and are not looking to the long term. This is like a man who spends his pay check to the last penny week after week and then reached retiring age and has nothing saved to live on.

The system we have of "economizing resources" is a stupid one in as much as these systems don't economize, and one that is leading to shortages of everything which is going to topple these nations when TSHTF.

[trialbyerror]

I have it on good authority VIS one of the casual visitors to the farm is an adviser to the SA presidency.

The world economy is expected to remain where it is until the Chinese political system (and accompanying economy) collapses

This is expected to happen two to three generations from the current generation.

What will drive this change is the expectancy of the youth. They will start to rebel against the regime of working for very little material gain.

At that time the Chinese authorities are expected to continue by trying to enforce the current status-quo. That is expected to spiral down first into civil disobedience then into outright civil conflict

The current economic status is that China buys raw materials / scrap converts it, produces

high value value added goods and sells it back to the "West at huge profit.

It is based on the culture of consumerism, and until the earth runs dry.... But that's perhaps another debate...

[MisterLove]

The current economic status is that China buys raw materials / scrap converts it, produces

high value value added goods and sells it back to the "West at huge profit.

It is based on the culture of consumerism, and until the earth runs dry.... But that's perhaps another debate...

Shouldn't we blame free market instead of China, then?

I say globalize workers' rights and create equal standards for everyone, incl. equal salaries. China wants to exploit workers and reduce production costs? We simply close down our borders and tell them to go sell their fake Armani jeans somewhere else.

Consumerism is another myth. I have nothing against consumerism, the only logical argument against it is environment but surely it is possible to spend a lot of money, keep the economy going and hot harming the planet.

[cardiganwearer]

Shouldn't we blame free market instead of China, then?

I say globalize workers' rights and create equal standards for everyone, incl. equal salaries. China wants to exploit workers and reduce production costs? We simply close down our borders and tell them to go sell their fake Armani jeans somewhere else.

Consumerism is another myth. I have nothing against consumerism, the only logical argument against it is environment but surely it is possible to spend a lot of money, keep the economy going and hot harming the planet.

The big corporations would like nothing more than to globalise workers rights, they'd be happy to have us all enjoy China's enlightened policy on wages and conditions.

Since 2007 China has held 8% of US national debt, the biggest single foreign holder. Close the borders and they'd just call it in or sell it.

This situation is not unique to America. Many countries have outsourced their manufacturing to China.

At the corporate balance-sheet level it looks a lot better to have high unemployment at home and have people working long hours in appalling conditions in China because it makes goods cheaper. Because countries aren't manufacturing, they're not producing income which can be taxed to pay for the things that governments do.


No problem, governments sell bonds all the time to raise money for that, to cover long and short term expenditure. These bonds may be bought by anyone, anyone with money. Who's got the money? The countries who are doing manufacturing.

It is a problem of free markets, but abandoning free markets is not the solution. The situation is very big and very complicated, it is unlikely to have a solution that can be expressed in one sentence.

Remember, economics was only invented to make astrology look good.

[ardus]

China, the United States, Russia, and Brazil.

The 4 countries with enough resources and population to really dramatically effect the entire globe. China as I see it is right now in the stage the US and the USSR were in the 70's trying to expand their influence. I'd say for a guess Brazil will hit that stage in 20 or so years.

I think 2 generations is probably a good number before China's government collapses, unless they make major changes and embrace individual rights on a large scale.
China has shown a remarkable adaptability in the last 30 years so don't count them out on being able to change.

We in the US have a unique problem. Our standard of living is too high. The vast majority of Americans can't comprehend poverty or struggling so the vast majority just don't care.

In 20-30 years if we don't change we run the risk of being where Russia is, on the downturn and the only people who live well are the wealthy.

Crazy world this.

Richard


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[MisterTinkles]

When you sell out your own country and countrymen to overseas entities, its your governments fault for letting it happen. "Free Trade" outside ones own country should be restricted, not absorbed into the marketplace.

The price of the same items made in China are the SAME prices that the same products were sold for when being made in ones own country. BUT...when you outsource production, you put your own countrymen out of work, and a lot of them go homeless because of it.

Companies should be forced by law, to only be able to outsource 1% of their products and workforce, not 50-100% of it.

Screw the recession, outsourcing is what is killing us.....literally.

[Undreamt]

The biggest problem is trying to sell things for below the cost it would be make the product where it is used and sacrificing longevity in favor of higher profits.