partis Wrote:7 million germans died in WWII... 50 million non germans died because ultimately of german aggression, yes they paid, i wouldnt say "dearly" though.
If nazi germany had thrown a toothbrush at poland and called the soviet union a big pansy then what happened to them in return would of been paying dearly.
Dont get me wrong, i said a "small part" of me wished the plot had sucseeded. That no one gets that is a shame.
Having your country occupied 4 fold, reduced to roughly half it's original territory, pretty much all your important cites reduced to rubble and being split in 2 for 50 years is paying dearly alright...maybe not in casualties..
and out of the 50 millions casualties of WWII you're forgetting that half of them are due to Japanese agression, most specially in China...
currently Germany is not allowed to have an army larger than that of the UK, nor chemical nor nuclear arsenal, unlike France and the UK.....they're still paying Partis...slowly, but certainly..
anyways...the point is that tit for tat policies are never good...Hebrew and non-Hebrew Jewish folks have better things to worry about, like having a new country and not 24 hours later having it invaded by Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Jordan....just saying,
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Try to place nuclear waepons in Germany and you get your Ticket home ... we don´t want this shit...  Same with all other kinds of weapons... maybe you remember the big demonstrations against the nuclear weapons which the US has placed in Germany in the 1980th
The Germany of today is a very peacefully Germany ... you can see it very clearly if another Country or Nato or whatever wants our Army ... We don´t want 
Germany has been so thoroughly trained to peace, that the Allies of today do not like it , that Germany nowhere wants to fight ... And thats what we have learned from our Grandparents....
In the 1960 when war toys was modern... our Grandmothers told us : "This toys not in my Home" My Grandmother reacted hysterically just on Water Pistols
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fenris Wrote:The Nazi-Problem started not in 1933.... it started in 1920/21.... with 10 years more time. What many people don´t know is that in this time a lot of germans starved or froze to death because the big inflation. My Grandmother told me that they had to go to the Bakery with Laundry baskets full of money to buy a bread .... and so the anger grew against the winner of WW1... and the Nazi-Party grow.
That's true....one of the biggest reasons NSDAP got so much support was due to social policies during the Great Depression..
Mind you, the government in Imperial Germany was a major causer of WWI, but so were the rest of the European powers...all of them, Austria, Russia, UK and France, for one reason or another, wanted to fight..
In the end it was because Germany was pretty much the only one out of the Central Powers capable of putting up a good fight, that it got the worse terms..
and those terms, I think, were directed against reverting Germany back into it's conditions previous to 1871 when it wasn't such a threat...
Allies could easily get rid of the other enemies by tearing them apart in pieces following Wilson's doctrine of self-determination for different ethnicities in Austria-Hungary and Ottoman Turkey, but they could not do that to a homogenous nation as Germany...
so, they had to resort to cripple Germany economically and militarly...
that was only bound, specially after the Great Depression, to resort to extreme forms of politics...it happened in Italy, in Hungary, in Austria, in Spain, in Romania, in Greece, etc..
Anyways, now Germany barely keeps 270.000 something Armed Forces personnel when the agreement signed in 1990 alows them to have some 350.000....
safe to say Germany is not thinking about reliving its past...
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Fenris i know what your saying, this is my favourite subject, yes i like rommel, me & southbio do, aint that right southy! :p
Was WWII the second part to WWI ?? - i know this line of thought, some historians call it 30 year war 1914 - 1945. But i dont think so. Not strictly, cause hitler made it so. Im not saying it was right to give germany such harsh repriations but hitler used it to his own cause. Its hard to know what hitler really believed as he just used what already was in people to give him power.
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partis Wrote:Fenris i know what your saying, this is my favourite subject, yes i like rommel, me & southbio do, aint that right southy! :p
Was WWII the second part to WWI ?? - i know this line of thought, some historians call it 30 year war 1914 - 1945. But i dont think so. Not strictly, cause hitler made it so. Im not saying it was right to give germany such harsh repriations but hitler used it to his own cause. Its hard to know what hitler really believed as he just used what already was in people to give him power.
I think it was ... without the years between 1920 - 1933 it was not possible for Hitler to find so much members for his party. in the first few years it looked so harmless .. and afterwards a party leaving was impossible
rommel is no longer really unburdened ..by new insights it looks like that Rommel was more Nazi than expected ... and frankly, I do not think that it was possible to ascend as far as a non-Nazi
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fenris Wrote:I think it was ... without the years between 1920 - 1933 it was not possible for Hitler to find so much members for his party. in the first few years it looked so harmless .. and afterwards a party leaving was impossible
rommel is no longer really unburdened ..by new insights it looks like that Rommel was more Nazi than expected ... and frankly, I do not think that it was possible to ascend as far as a non-Nazi
The Spanish author Julián Casanova calls the period bewteen 1914-1945, simply, a 30 year European Civil War..
There is both truth and not so much about this..
WWI was mostly an old fashioned war faught with more modern weapons..hence the death toll
the true efect of WWI was to tear down the old social and political order...and to put on the test the liberal parliamentary model..
Russian society tore apart, new states had trouble building themselves up from the ruins of the old continental empires...indeed...these troubles, the lack of experience in democratic practices and the threat of the Communist Revolution spreading westward soon began to draw people in central and eastern Europe towards right wing aunthoritarian models, and in Germany, Italy and Spain, things went even worse it got to the next level in the form of fascism...in the East soon the communist model proved equaly dreadful once Stalin amassed enough power..
without WWI nor Hitler nor Stalin would have had ears to listen to their speech..
the result, was 2 enemies aganist democracy and those were enemies amongst themselves...Europe was the battleground
on can even argue that the war went on further, once one of the 3 actors lost the batlle in 1945, fascism, and then went on in proxy wars bewteen the 2 remaninig actors, capitalist democracy and communist dictatorships..
oh....Rommel might not have been perfect, but he was the least Nazi Nazi out there..otherwise he would have gone throguh with his orders to execute racial cleansing which he never did...
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southbiochem Wrote:The Spanish author Julián Casanova calls the period bewteen 1914-1945, simply, a 30 year European Civil War..
There is both truth and not so much about this..
WWI was mostly an old fashioned war faught with more modern weapons..hence the death toll
the true efect of WWI was to tear down the old social and political order...and to put on the test the liberal parliamentary model..
Russian society tore apart, new states had trouble building themselves up from the ruins of the old continental empires...indeed...these troubles, the lack of experience in democratic practices and the threat of the Communist Revolution spreading westward soon began to draw people in central and eastern Europe towards right wing aunthoritarian models, and in Germany, Italy and Spain, things went even worse it got to the next level in the form of fascism...in the East soon the communist model proved equaly dreadful once Stalin amassed enough power..
without WWI nor Hitler nor Stalin would have had ears to listen to their speech..
the result, was 2 enemies aganist democracy and those were enemies amongst themselves...Europe was the battleground
on can even argue that the war went on further, once one of the 3 actors lost the batlle in 1945, fascism, and then went on in proxy wars bewteen the 2 remaninig actors, capitalist democracy and communist dictatorships..
oh....Rommel might not have been perfect, but he was the least Nazi Nazi out there..otherwise he would have gone throguh with his orders to execute racial cleansing which he never did...
I think we both are right .. the truth and what rally happend we will see in a few years, when all the old archives are opened .... I don´t think that all of friends, allies and foes know the truth now....
Important is that we ... the people, not the governments, not the countrys or states... have the key to peace in our hearts. We all need to trust and learn to forgive, only then is a possible live together. To forgive is not forgot .... what happend in Germany yesterday can happen tomorrow in other countrys as long as we think we are better and more worth as other people
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Quite right, theres so many unanswered questions and withheld information, we have some collecting dust not to be made public till 2030. Its quite annoy. It doesnt make a difference now, its history.
I believe to forget is to forgive but this we can forgive but never forget. That war shaped the world we live in.
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partis Wrote:That war shaped the world we live in.
Except the Middle East...those borders, short of Israel, were drawn in WWI...by Brits...:tongue:
Anyway....humans are bound to keep killing each other for pety reasons, but I think and hope that we're not goin to see a event at the level of WWII....
I mean, with all the nuclear arsenal US and Soviet Union had they could have let their seemingly neo-imperialistic ambitions to throw the world into obliteration...but they didn't...they resorted to smalln proxy wars rather than direct confrontation, which tells you that at least the major powers of the world gained great common sense from what happened bewteen 1939-1945...
in that regard, we have the EU as a flawed, yes, but very useful example to show the extent that cooperation bewteen countries can reach
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southbiochem Wrote:Except the Middle East...those borders, short of Israel, were drawn in WWI...by Brits...:tongue:
Dont get me started on the brits, damn scoundrels, the lot of them :p
yes "short of Israel" though thats quite a big one
I didnt mean just borders though.
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