Hokay, so I think it's fair to say that children are rather like sponges when it comes to subject-matter, insofar as given that their brains are not addled or cluttered by the compexities and bumf that seems to come with adulthood, and so many (read: almost all) eagerly take on board whatever they're told (up to a point of course).
The THRUST of this question is as follows :-
If you had a child (or children), would you want them to be indoctrinated into a religion ? What are your thoughts on the process - is it a fundamentally good or bad thing ?
I realise this is likely to be a rather hotly contested point.
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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Agh.... that is not an easy question or rather doesn't have an easy answer. For me at least.
Religions are scary and used more of the time not to increase peoples feeling between them and god but to cultivate fear ad set people into boxes of 'acceptable' behaviour , what is wrong what is right and how hell awaits if they do something wrong. Basically i believe religion is a state of mind where at the past where more chaos was about the world was a good way to stop people murdering each other. Although still this happens we now have a more civilised or camouflaged way to be cruel to each other.
It would be most difficult to make a decision what religion if any i shall raise my hypothetical children as i myself am not confident what religion should i believe or follow. You see every single one claims that are the only way to heaven ...given hell exists this is a very powerful argument to make you choose one, but which of the dozen?
Believing in God can explain things that cannot be explained or comprehend otherwise so i would most probably like my kids to believe at least in god. Faith is good generally speaking. Religion is not necessarily god. And god is not necessarily one ...polytheism was indeed most popular by many major cultures of the past , now monotheism is what is encouraged. So if is polytheism is the case and i teach my kids to believe in the existence of The God what will happen if i choose the wrong one. Burn in hell according to every religious scripts.
On the practical side i would choose to teach them to believe in themselves, how to fulfil their potential or destiny if that is how some want to call it , introduce them to multiplicity and diversity of the world and try to explain the 'bad and good'. What is the name of that religion?
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Agh.... that is not an easy question or rather doesn't have an easy answer. For me at least.
Religions are scary, used most of the time not to increase peoples feeling between them and god, but to cultivate fear ad set people into boxes of 'acceptable' behaviour; what is wrong what is right and how hell awaits if they do something wrong. Basically i believe religion is a state of mind where at the past where more chaos was about the world was a good way to stop people murdering each other. Although still this happens we now have a more civilised or camouflaged way to be cruel to each other- so in my eyes religion hasnt fully served its purpose. People havent fight off their instinct for self destruction and dont know how close to god we feel.
It would be most difficult to make a decision what religion if any i shall raise my hypothetical children as i myself am not confident what religion should i believe or follow. You see every single one claims that are the only way to heaven ...given hell exists this is a very powerful argument to make you choose one, but which of the dozen?
Believing in God can explain things that cannot be explained or comprehend otherwise so i would most probably like my kids to believe at least in god. Faith is good generally speaking. Religion is not necessarily god. And god is not necessarily one ...polytheism was indeed most popular by many major cultures of the past , now monotheism is what is encouraged. So if is polytheism is the case and i teach my kids to believe in the existence of The God what will happen if i choose the wrong one. Burn in hell according to every religious scripts.
On the practical side i would choose to teach them to believe in themselves, how to fulfil their potential or destiny if that is how some want to call it , introduce them to multiplicity and diversity of the world and try to explain the 'bad and good'. What is the name of that religion?
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You just knew I'd get drawn into this one :eek:
I was brought up LDS, married LDS and we had children ... naturally with the intention of bringing them up LDS too. However, within a few years of the birth of our eldest I had made a very tough decision that I could no longer go along with it and this caused enormous friction within both our immediate and the extended family.
If this discussion grows legs I may fill in more detail if it seems appropriate, but I value what my eldest once said to me. It was something to the effect that he felt he had the best of both worlds in his upbringing. His mother gave him a foundation upon which to build his spiritual and religious values while from me he saw there was more than just one way of seeing, believing and behaving and he values the human dimension and interest in a wider world he says he learned from me.
If I were to do it all again I would, in spite of my son's comments, do my utmost to keep their minds open and away from any organised faith. Mormons, like the Jesuits, believe in the indoctrination of children. That conditioning goes painfully deep and is very difficult to unravel. I don't see anything wrong with a bit of awe and wonder, but I do not accept that spiritual values have to be tied to a belief in any kind or any number of gods. These days I find that Richard Dawkins has very clearly articulated what I now feel about religion i.e that it is a form of child abuse. I see my grandchildren being brought up in the same way. Some of us who have broken away have had to deal with mental health issues in our struggle for independence. I am inclined to believe the struggle between early indoctrination and rational thought has contributed to the damage.
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Yeah, to be honest it's a topic I would have thought more people would have had strong views on ... and I fully anticipated you would reply dear Marshlander and, as always, your views are much appreciated  mile: xx.
I think that, for me, from a purely practical perspective I would opt for my children to be raised Church of England, purely because it's (in my eyes) one of the loosest-knit religious groups around, insofar as that's how I was raised; the religious-teachings of the C of E aren't anywhere NEAR as daunting or regimented as the Roman Catholics, (I gather from what you've said) the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (sp?) and others ... and it would give them, as you say, the opportunity to learn ABOUT religion whilst not FORCING them to adhere to one ...
... additionally there's the element of being singled-out at school for not following a given religion ... when I was a boy, all the kids that didn't "do" Church of England would have to stay behind at school whilst we had assemblies and so on, and so forth, and so the lack of adhering TO a religion effectively made them outcasts from certain aspects of interaction with their peers, which is a bit *chews bottom lip* to me as well ...
... but in terms of how I personally feel about the indoctrination of children into organised religion ? Whilst I would suggest that citing it as a form of child abuse is perhaps a little harsh (in my eyes), I do totally agree that it is, like many things that affect children, not something they really have much of a say in, and so it is something that must be given due consideration. Given that the trouble with most of the more organised ("pushy" as I would call them) religions is that they are VERY very strict, and THEY tell YOU what to think and how to feel about life issues, I wouldn't want any child of mine to be forced to adopt a code like that. Personally I value wisdom, which is garnered from a) experience, and b) appreciating and taking on board that there is a big, wide world out there, and you can learn so much more my exposing yourself to its variety and diversity than you can from simply being told that this is this and that is that ... so I would never want my child to be brought up in accordance with a strict set of rules that were rigidly enforced upon them ...
... so C of E at school, but my personal teachings to them would be to embrace a larger view of the world, AND religion in general.
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
P.s. Spotysocks - sorry babe but I don't know the name of the religion you're referring to :frown: xx.
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Believing in yourself could take two names.... confidence, or narcissism...; lol.
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Perhaps, but I'm sure we know which is meant in the context mile:.
Self-belief is healthy and wholesome - the alternative - self-degradation - has led to much unhappiness and ruin in its time.
x
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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Shadow Wrote:Perhaps, but I'm sure we know which is meant in the context mile:.
Self-belief is healthy and wholesome - the alternative - self-degradation - has led to much unhappiness and ruin in its time.
x
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
HEAR, hear!!!
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Shadow Wrote:... I think that, for me, from a purely practical perspective I would opt for my children to be raised Church of England, purely because it's (in my eyes) one of the loosest-knit religious groups around, insofar as that's how I was raised;
... so C of E at school, but my personal teachings to them would be to embrace a larger view of the world, AND religion in general.... It sounds like you might be suggesting that an "appropriate" religious allegiance might be the way to go to be able to avoid being singled out as being different at school ...? I see that argument as a very good reason to put an end to the statutory daily act of collective worship and faith-sponsored schools altogether. Religious education is still in thrall to believers through local standing advisory committees and has a way to go before it becomes a truly dispassionate academic study in schools, but at least most locally agreed curricula look at a range of belief systems.
What I find very troublesome is the expansion of voluntary controlled schools, i.e. schools having a religious character that are supposedly overseen by the local authority. The Church of England may be the largest influence in this category of schools, but increasingly we are seeing other religious groups being given free access to the hearts and minds of children. I found out recently that the "Brethren" have opened a new school not far from here. That such conservative groups can be allowed to take a major part in creating ghettoised schools for their own children is a potentially terrifying prospect. At least when children from ultra-conservative religious families have to attend state schools having no religious allegiance they get to deal with the rest of us on a daily basis. Allowing them to segregate themselves like this is a recipe for intolerance and auto-supremacy to fester. I won't say anything at all about Islam in this context!
Some of the latest changes in the law (Education and Inspections Act 2006) allow these groups to reserve a headteacher's post for someone who is appointed specifically to teach religious education in line with the school's faith. For existing schools that take on VC status that could well hamper the career prospects of existing staff, many of whom will be unlikely to be in sufficient sympathy with a religious organisation's beliefs.
If we think we are dealing with fundamentalism now, I suspect we ain't seen nothing yet. Let this system beaver away at undermining the basic freedoms of thought and belief we currently enjoy and see where we are in twenty years' time. I don't think we shall be better off :frown:
Better, by far to grasp the nettle and get religious influence out of our schools altogether. A healthy dose of rationalism won't do anyone any harm. Those who need to find their explanations about the universe in a god should be free to choose for themselves when they are grown up and outside the formal education system. Forcing children into a belief system is wrong, however benign the group may perceive itself to be. As Shadow has observed there will be children in those groups being caused untold misery by being unable to conform. Even the apparently all-embracing Church of England argues about whether glbt, and even women should be allowed to have the same freedoms as the the rest. That amounts to decisions affecting over half the population being made by a few hundred bigots, folks!
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marshlander Wrote:It sounds like you might be suggesting that an "appropriate" religious allegiance might be the way to go to be able to avoid being singled out as being different at school ...?
Indeed I am ... to a degree - children at school are often singled out for ANY difference, so if it's not the colour of your hair or your height or your weight or the size of your penis or breasts or your scent or your skin colour, it will be something else, like your religion, what your parent/s do for a living, that your mum bought you a shellsuit and you wore it to the school trip to the Castle ... it really doesn't matter - it'll be something.
I wouldn't say that conformity with a religious doctrine is a MASSIVE boon to a child, or "the" way of being avoided as being singled-out - merely that failing to conform with what is held out as the great standard (whever you are) religion-wise, leads to people asking why that is, which leads to them pointing a finger at you, and singling you out ... and many people, particularly children, are more susceptible to being victimised on that basis than their (hopefully more resilient) adult counterparts, largely because they lack the confidence to turn around and say "F*CK OFF :mad:" to anybody that starts with them !!
There is absolutely nothing wrong in my mind with people forging out on their own two-legs and saying "THIS is what I believe (or don't), and that's that", but the problem for me isn't with any belief system - it is, as I believe is to a degree the same with you my friend, the manner in which that system of beliefs is put TO people.
It's almost like the army -v- national service ... the choice of committing to a religious belief system is not yours to make - it is largely forced upon you ...
marshlander Wrote:I see that argument as a very good reason to put an end to the statutory daily act of collective worship and faith-sponsored schools altogether. Religious education is still in thrall to believers through local standing advisory committees and has a way to go before it becomes a truly dispassionate academic study in schools, but at least most locally agreed curricula look at a range of belief systems.
Again, I agree with you to a point - personally I don't see a problem with there being a dominant religion at a given school, insofar as, as long as it's above-board in the way in which parents are made aware that this is what religion is being taught, it's rather a case of caveat emptor to my mind ... and the right to choose the religious affiliation of a child is, I believe, one of the rights of parental responsibility currently enshrined under British Law ... if my recollection of British Family Law is still current mile:.
marshlander Wrote:What I find very troublesome is the expansion of voluntary controlled schools, i.e. schools having a religious character that are supposedly overseen by the local authority. The Church of England may be the largest influence in this category of schools, but increasingly we are seeing other religious groups being given free access to the hearts and minds of children. I found out recently that the "Brethren" have opened a new school not far from here. That such conservative groups can be allowed to take a major part in creating ghettoised schools for their own children is a potentially terrifying prospect. At least when children from ultra-conservative religious families have to attend state schools having no religious allegiance they get to deal with the rest of us on a daily basis. Allowing them to segregate themselves like this is a recipe for intolerance and auto-supremacy to fester. I won't say anything at all about Islam in this context!
I can appreciate the concerns you have on this, but by the same token I think you have to look upon religion on a number of levels ... to my mind you have the devoted zealot, the follower, the fairweather observant, the student of one or more religions, the agnostic, the atheist and the fallen follower, from top to bottom, and so a lot of the positive experience I have had with religion has been based on my observing it even when it has been presented to me on a daily basis ... it's like ... if you witness something happening on a daily basis, it doesn't mean you're brainwashed into complying with it - merely that it's more accessible for your digestion ...
So yeah, you and I agree - I just don't think there is an easy solution ... I think banning the practice and teaching of organised religions in schools draws attention to it - I don't see anything wrong with religious doctrine, OR with it being taught - I just think exclusivity is preventative in many ways, as I feel considerably MORE enlightened by having been able to learn of multiple religions and, fine, I suppose I have a hybrid theory of what actually represents the truth of the world on a religious basis, but I don't feel that anybody but me has led me to it ...
Hoping that some of that makes some sense I shall  and leave mile:.
xx
!?!?! Shadow !?!?!
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