Discrimination[Jobs] - Rant/Opinion

[Sylph]

Now y'all know perhaps by now that I tend to get very heated when it comes to certain topics, fair warning m'kay? I'm truely am sorry if I offend anyone, I'm severely irate however, so I'm probably just gonna go straight off my head on this one ><

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Now look, I've been unemployed since about end of October, complications finding a new job, blah blah, local bullshit.

However, what I can't stand, is that one of the very complications, has to do with who a person is and how they choose to represent themselves aside from their work persona.

Firstly Watch this video if you may, it will pretty much sum up all that I really want to say without getting "into it" and how I feel on this very vexing aspect of both my current predicament and for all other job seekers out there.




Now, I do realize this is a black person and incident, however this applies to all people, gay, straight, white, latin, purple, left-handed, whatever!

Why is it that it's found okay for this to be a condition for hiring or firing someone? If that person brings their shit to work or takes shit home from work they shouldn't, then yeah, I understand then, but how is it okay to judge someone before they even get seriously considered for the job without personal background checks?

Luckily, for most jobs here we don't do that to my knowledge, however, for many of the jobs(in particular that I would like to apply for - Hospitality/Hotels) require certain prerequisites, the most prominent one for me is;
Male Dress Code:
No visible Piercings - Check
No visible Tattoos - Check
Facial Hair Must be kept trimmed/short - Ofcourse check!
Hair must be kept above ear length - What the fuck??

That's almost for every hotel here or place that does hospitality related things, and it's just so odd to me.

Many men here wear their hair short, granted, but as Island people (and even for some "Mainlanders - Americans/S.American/etc) we tend to be into Dreadlocks, I'd even wager to say amoungst our fairly modest 50-60,000 population(of which half is considered "Expat/Foreigner/Short term Residential) a good 20-30% of men(and women obviously) wear them.

It's unavoidable, whether it be for the Rasta Religion(which is not why I have them, but could be viewed similar), which is of course popular here, or just for a favoured style or whatever, I fail to see why such a Rule is like the make or break point?

Sure you pretty much have to see my hair, unless I wear a Tam which is considered a non-uniform article and so is generally not acceptable at work, as a opposed to a Tattoo that can be hidden or Piercings that can be removed, but it's not as if tho they detail the person that I am or speak of my ability as a worker or whatever.

In my eyes and many other like minded people, it literally has no connection to my ability to work or what I know, other than the fact that they are connected to me. That's it.

People who do not have an attachment to their hair or anything that is considered to be a "deal breaker", will most likely never understand what I mean or why I feel the way I do, but I just think that, like being Gay, Black, White, Lesbian or whatever shouldn't be a deal breaker, why are other very minor things such as one's preferred hair style or whatever be viewed so detrimentally?

Why not hire/fire upon one's ability as a worker and less on how they look or who they fuck?

and I don't get why, if you're considered "acceptable" despite your commonality with someone who isn't, that you feel that that person should be more like you or acceptable in general? Such as with "butch" gays or "Campy" ones, where the former is considered far more seriously than the latter, even tho the latter may know more and be more skilled in the area more so than the "butch" one.

Fuck all that, I think that atleast with Jobs, they need to be a lil more fair on how they operate, world wide.

It's like they're purposefully trying not to hire you for any reason, unless you fit their description of a good worker, without actually trying to ascertain the true level of aptitude of the person.

I'm just so annoyed and fed up at this point with jobs, I can now really see why some people actually wanna be "kept" by others. It ain't easy :crying-and-sorry-li [/COLOR]

[Kackerlacka]

well, its not always a make or break point for the long hair thing. But it may affect your chances over someone elses...sometimes they may ont even consider that by you. That is just the STANDARD for all job applications for within the company you applied too. So they do not need to take that into factor, it was just the standard for the company, each section/location of the company does not get their own set of written rules. The manager may not even consider that hair rule. It depends on the person who interviews.

There is also another option, for contacting your last employer. This if anyone is one that will affect you. But again its solely up to the manager.

[MisterTinkles]

Yeah, I can understand that. Been there, was treated like that.

BUT....
And this has to do with the video you posted.......a lot of people DO NOT KNOW HOW TO INTERVIEW. If someone goes in there acting like a skank assed ho, then WHY do you have any expectations of them caring about hiring you?
And although the guy making the vid is good at comedy, he really fucked up this video. You walk into an interview with green hair, dark sunglasses, and dressed like your ready for bed or the beach, then you sure as hell aren't getting hired. You get a "courtesy interview" and thats all you get. After you leave, your resume gets thrown away.

Not only did this person in the video dress, act, and talk WRONG for an interview, this person came into this interview with LIES and a FAKE name to purposely throw a personal tantrum for something HE/SHE set up in advance. He/she not only destroyed and undermined that interview before they got to the interview, they undermined ANY AND ALL real and substantial questions the interviewer had for him/her.

This person purposely went into this interview with a "bomb", and had no intention of allowing the interviewer to read the resume he/she brought into the interview, much less allow the interviewer to ask any pertinent questions about their background.


As for what YOU have said, I agree. But that is the way the business world works. It is unjust, unfair, and bigoted. It always has been, and it always will be.

I worked at one place many years ago, where I had ponytail, but I kept it under my hat, as per the instructions in the company handbook. Yet, the women not only did NOT have to wear hats, they all had long hair that they did NOT have to keep above their ears!

The store manager came in one day (he knew I had long hair and kept it pinned up under my hat) and asked me (as he always did) when I was going to get my hair cut.

And I gave him my standard response...."when all the female employees were made to get haircuts". He never had a response for that. He would just smirk, turn, and walk away.

You can't get away from it.

[Pix]

Hotels typically exist to make money first before any other ethical considerations are considered and that depends on patronage which I expect are fiercely competed for where you're at. And a great many who come over can be expected to come from upper class (or close enough) backgrounds who would be startled, frightened, and/or offended by people who don't adhere to the dress codes, and these businesses probably do all they can to keep from alienating those potential guests. It wouldn't surprise me if those hotels are ultimately owned by people who aren't native to your island and the codes and policies are made in other countries.

That's not a defense of it, just an explanation. These visual cues mean A LOT to people. Having had experience among criminals I learned that enough that I'm actually less trusting of those who adhere to the dress codes than I am of those who deviate far from it (especially if they make sure you "know" they're religious). One lesson for that was when I and other kids were made to look innocent (or at least harmless) until one or more guys acting as a distraction (preferably black, but anyone with a lot of piercings, unconventional hair and dress, etc) made a scene, and while all attention was focused on them we'd shoplift like crazy--some boys would even steal cartons of cigarettes which involved setting off an alarm (more of a chirp but still audible) and I could clearly see the outlines of the cartons in their pants & shirt. These stores all had cams. And we got away with it over & over again because people are stupid and believe you can know a person by how they look. (And btw, I found that such organized retail crime operates on a much bigger scale than I ever experienced as a runaway, this goes on everywhere.)

I was naive that way once myself and nearly got raped for it when I was 15. I knew I wasn't supposed to get in a car with strangers yet the guy seemed really nice, clean cut, professional appearance, looked like a family man (he probably was), and in all the "stranger danger" vids I'd seen the bad guys all looked scary with lots of blacks, predatory glares and/or dark shades (and lots of scary music), not some guy who looked like that. At least I learned better. Many people never do. And as a great many people remain that stupid then a hotel catering to wealthy vacationers will lose money (and possibly go out of business) if they don't adhere to a dress code that inspires trust.

'Course racism and all that play a part, too. I know a black guy who is soft spoken yet articulate and has a name common to white men. More than once he saw surprise and hostility when he showed up and in one case he was actually hired over the phone (paperwork still pending) but after he showed up the security on the set tried to eject him until he explained who he was and when escorted to those who were going to get him to do the paperwork to get him on the staff the shock that he was black was tangible and they invented some reason to not hire him, but thanks for coming. Btw, he usually conformed to the expected dress codes so that had nothing to do with it.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Sylph, As you know my hair flows to midback length. So I feel you on this issue.

However I know the flip side of this.

Long hair is considered 'wrong' by the majority, and whilst they have come to visit with all the primitive brown natives, I can assure you that many of those rich white people really don't want a brown primitive native left alone with their stuff, or allowed access to their rooms.

Thus shoring your primitive cultures long locks equates in their mind that you are less primitive (but still we all know brown skins are what they are, right?)

The hotel knows their clientele and they will cowtow to that clientele because of the money those rich white people bring to the hotel and the island.

Most likely the hotel actually feels much the way you do, its not a big deal - but it is a big deal if they want to compete, stay in business and turn a profit.

Same applies to tats, piercings, men wearing dresses - etc.... Image sells rooms.

Sorry Love.

[Woollyhats]

It is annoying. The logic unfortunately is that your appearance should be what makes the most customers feel professional and likeable. Things like tattoos and piercings are gaining acceptance but are still not universally accepted, so companies don't like taking risks.

Something I would do because I'm an obnoxious asshole would be to keep all of my piercings and tattoos hidden while applying, doing the interview process, and 3 months, and then reveal them if not against a dress code I've signed. It Canada freedom of expression is a protected right --- but it's still going to be hard to get a certain job if you look a certain way. Basically, you can test your boundries once you've proved you're a good worker.

For example, I work with a girl that has unusual and startling hair styles (she's in school for hair dressing of course), but during her interview she pretended to be normal. Now she has weird hair styles since she's past the fire-for-any-reason date, but she hides it under a hat.

Another option would be to approach a manager directly as to what their idea of a professional appearance is, or look at employees in places you're applying to. If there are people that look a tad unusual you obviously know you're more likely to be hired even with dreadlocks. Still, you should look as professional as possible.

Maybe consider things like that. No, it's not fair, but it's unfortunately the way it is.

[loserguy]

I need to point out a few things:
First of all, the main reason business are started is to make a profit, nothing else and anyone who may think differently is naive.
Secondly, irrespective of what you, I or anyone thinks a company has the right to project an image for the type of employee it chooses to hire provided it does not transgress any laws. If, we choose to a apply for a position and decide not to conform, it is their decision as to whether they hire us or not. While I would not entertain that sort of bullshit, if you want to work for these firms, lose the attitude and conform? If not, stop complaining and find a firm where brains and initiative are more important than whether you have long hair, short hair or no hair. But you will find that you will probably need to employ some form of conformity for these firms as well!

[Sylph]

well, its not always a make or break point for the long hair thing. But it may affect your chances over someone elses...sometimes they may ont even consider that by you. That is just the STANDARD for all job applications for within the company you applied too. So they do not need to take that into factor, it was just the standard for the company, each section/location of the company does not get their own set of written rules. The manager may not even consider that hair rule. It depends on the person who interviews.

There is also another option, for contacting your last employer. This if anyone is one that will affect you. But again its solely up to the manager.

[COLOR="Red"]My last employ, was pretty stressful for me, so even against the most obvious, and probably smartest decisions I could make, I'd rather not have to go back if I don't have to, but I do realize she would probably be the best person to help "sell" me if it came to that.

In the hotels that we have here ( the majour ones ofcourse), tend to follow the same policies in nearly all ways, except for instance the Southshore vs. Northshore ones, as it is more "Tropical" on the Southshore and more Business/Residential on the Northshore[It's in our Capital, so ofc], so the dress codes are slightly different, but even still, I don't see how it can depend on the manager or interviewee, if the base premise is still by visual accordance?

And the funny part is, nearly none of them really tell you what's too much or little, just "stay above ear length". Obviously I know what looking professional is and so forth, but I could easily wear a hairstyle that's even more visually "startling" like a Mohawk, which is normally above the ear, so would I not still be within the rules?[/COLOR]

Yeah, I can understand that. Been there, was treated like that.

BUT....
And this has to do with the video you posted.......a lot of people DO NOT KNOW HOW TO INTERVIEW. If someone goes in there acting like a skank assed ho, then WHY do you have any expectations of them caring about hiring you?
And although the guy making the vid is good at comedy, he really fucked up this video. You walk into an interview with green hair, dark sunglasses, and dressed like your ready for bed or the beach, then you sure as hell aren't getting hired. You get a "courtesy interview" and thats all you get. After you leave, your resume gets thrown away.

Not only did this person in the video dress, act, and talk WRONG for an interview, this person came into this interview with LIES and a FAKE name to purposely throw a personal tantrum for something HE/SHE set up in advance. He/she not only destroyed and undermined that interview before they got to the interview, they undermined ANY AND ALL real and substantial questions the interviewer had for him/her.

This person purposely went into this interview with a "bomb", and had no intention of allowing the interviewer to read the resume he/she brought into the interview, much less allow the interviewer to ask any pertinent questions about their background.


As for what YOU have said, I agree. But that is the way the business world works. It is unjust, unfair, and bigoted. It always has been, and it always will be.

I worked at one place many years ago, where I had ponytail, but I kept it under my hat, as per the instructions in the company handbook. Yet, the women not only did NOT have to wear hats, they all had long hair that they did NOT have to keep above their ears!

The store manager came in one day (he knew I had long hair and kept it pinned up under my hat) and asked me (as he always did) when I was going to get my hair cut.

And I gave him my standard response...."when all the female employees were made to get haircuts". He never had a response for that. He would just smirk, turn, and walk away.

You can't get away from it.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Ew Tinkles, you had a pony tail? Too fem for you :p lol

However, that video was not meant to show what not to do in an interview, I'm pretty sure it's universally known you don't show up with hair colours that are unnatural(green/Purple/pink) and acting fresh off the boat, but it was to show how this interviewer saw her(him), and immediately wrote her off. When all the while she was highly educated, over qualified and well raised.

It was to show how not everything should be based off of someone's appearance, especially when it's obvious why you do so (in this case, cause she's a "ghetto independent black woman" ).

And I understand how the business world works, I may be from a small island, but I is not naive :p

I just don't see why I should have to or be unable to "get away from it", when as you said, women don't have to. Actually, even women who wear their hair short or even like a guy have near a similar problem, and I have to wonder is this societal norms trying to penetrate itself into the workplace?

I wish I could easily pin my hair up under anything lol, but it would only cause my literal headaches and take far too much time, and I don't think anyone should have to go through such lengths, especially when it's takes more effort than its probably worth, just to please someone who is not my significant other, and apparently won't deign to pay my bills?[/COLOR]

Hotels typically exist to make money first before any other ethical considerations are considered and that depends on patronage which I expect are fiercely competed for where you're at. And a great many who come over can be expected to come from upper class (or close enough) backgrounds who would be startled, frightened, and/or offended by people who don't adhere to the dress codes, and these businesses probably do all they can to keep from alienating those potential guests. It wouldn't surprise me if those hotels are ultimately owned by people who aren't native to your island and the codes and policies are made in other countries.

That's not a defense of it, just an explanation. These visual cues mean A LOT to people. Having had experience among criminals I learned that enough that I'm actually less trusting of those who adhere to the dress codes than I am of those who deviate far from it (especially if they make sure you "know" they're religious). One lesson for that was when I and other kids were made to look innocent (or at least harmless) until one or more guys acting as a distraction (preferably black, but anyone with a lot of piercings, unconventional hair and dress, etc) made a scene, and while all attention was focused on them we'd shoplift like crazy--some boys would even steal cartons of cigarettes which involved setting off an alarm (more of a chirp but still audible) and I could clearly see the outlines of the cartons in their pants & shirt. These stores all had cams. And we got away with it over & over again because people are stupid and believe you can know a person by how they look. (And btw, I found that such organized retail crime operates on a much bigger scale than I ever experienced as a runaway, this goes on everywhere.)

I was naive that way once myself and nearly got raped for it when I was 15. I knew I wasn't supposed to get in a car with strangers yet the guy seemed really nice, clean cut, professional appearance, looked like a family man (he probably was), and in all the "stranger danger" vids I'd seen the bad guys all looked scary with lots of blacks, predatory glares and/or dark shades (and lots of scary music), not some guy who looked like that. At least I learned better. Many people never do. And as a great many people remain that stupid then a hotel catering to wealthy vacationers will lose money (and possibly go out of business) if they don't adhere to a dress code that inspires trust.

'Course racism and all that play a part, too. I know a black guy who is soft spoken yet articulate and has a name common to white men. More than once he saw surprise and hostility when he showed up and in one case he was actually hired over the phone (paperwork still pending) but after he showed up the security on the set tried to eject him until he explained who he was and when escorted to those who were going to get him to do the paperwork to get him on the staff the shock that he was black was tangible and they invented some reason to not hire him, but thanks for coming. Btw, he usually conformed to the expected dress codes so that had nothing to do with it.

[COLOR="Navy"] Ugh again Pixie, get out my head T-T

Now while I don't totally agree on the white people thing, cause while most of the majour businesses are run/owned by white people, a good few are White Bermudians, so it's not like they're Americans or some foreign entity, however, from living here, what you've said can nearly hit the nail on the head in regards to racially motivated business acquaintances/adhere-ings.

Because America is so Close (icky :p - jk love y'all), many of the majour businesses, whom are either themselves affiliated with them or actually come from America (such as Appleby I think - not the resturant), tend to try and follow their norms to an extent, most prevalently with regards to how a person should dress or even dependent on their race, as typically White persons would sooner be seen more applicable, both due to the fact that they statistically are more likely to have education beyond highschool and because they are less likely to be into "outlandish" activities.

Now while we have very few American businesses (it's actually become an issue here, on the limitations of what Americans can do here and are cutting down on imported businesses, which would then cut our national income - hence the problem), the ones that we do have do like I said above and typically are run by a wealthy branch of white people, and hence the whole "ew America" thing here.

But I don't even have an issue with any of that really, because even some white people have it hard, be they Bermudian or not, however I can see where you come from and can actually agree with a good portion.

[/COLOR]

Sylph, As you know my hair flows to midback length. So I feel you on this issue.

However I know the flip side of this.

Long hair is considered 'wrong' by the majority, and whilst they have come to visit with all the primitive brown natives, I can assure you that many of those rich white people really don't want a brown primitive native left alone with their stuff, or allowed access to their rooms.

Thus shoring your primitive cultures long locks equates in their mind that you are less primitive (but still we all know brown skins are what they are, right?)

The hotel knows their clientele and they will cowtow to that clientele because of the money those rich white people bring to the hotel and the island.

Most likely the hotel actually feels much the way you do, its not a big deal - but it is a big deal if they want to compete, stay in business and turn a profit.

Same applies to tats, piercings, men wearing dresses - etc.... Image sells rooms.

Sorry Love.

[COLOR="Indigo"]Oh Bowyn gurl, I know about your long flowly princess hair, Miss Queen Elf :p

I fail tho, to really see how long hair equates to being "primitive"? Because of images of Cavemen with long wild hair(dreads too in some cases)?

I know in nearly every Island in the Caribbean and African Diaspora, based on our shared history and the slavery and all that stuff, that Dreads were seen as "Unruly" and called "Dreadful", hence the common term today Dreadlocks and that those who wore them were defiant and heathen-like.

So perhaps this ties into what you mean, however would that not make every woman in hair commercials, who walk the streets, that they too are wild or is that just applicable to Men?

I also do realize the stereotypes of having Dreadlocks and so forth, so I'm not ignorant as to how some people will feel about and around me, however, this is my home, why should I feel like a criminal in the place of my birth for those who do not come from here? To please them? And then people wonder why countries don't like each other?

While I am grateful to the clientele that the hotels smartly decide to appeal to, it makes no sense in my mind, as to why they would want to basically come to another America, in any place they go for that matter.


That's like going to Africa to sit in a 5 star bedroom, served by the people whom you feel you should see and so forth?

Let's face it, Africa is majourity black, you're gonna see black people, it's not the prettiest place in regards to buildings/homes, nor is it the most advanced, and yet, somehow forced "norms" are gonna require a little America/England or whatever in Africa so that the visitors can feel more at ease or whatever.

What's the point? Wouldn't you rather visit an Island to see it's people, culture and customs, rather than just what you're used to?

It defeats the purpose of even selling an image, if what you see is not what you really get.

[/COLOR]

It is annoying. The logic unfortunately is that your appearance should be what makes the most customers feel professional and likeable. Things like tattoos and piercings are gaining acceptance but are still not universally accepted, so companies don't like taking risks.

Something I would do because I'm an obnoxious asshole would be to keep all of my piercings and tattoos hidden while applying, doing the interview process, and 3 months, and then reveal them if not against a dress code I've signed. It Canada freedom of expression is a protected right --- but it's still going to be hard to get a certain job if you look a certain way. Basically, you can test your boundries once you've proved you're a good worker.

For example, I work with a girl that has unusual and startling hair styles (she's in school for hair dressing of course), but during her interview she pretended to be normal. Now she has weird hair styles since she's past the fire-for-any-reason date, but she hides it under a hat.

Another option would be to approach a manager directly as to what their idea of a professional appearance is, or look at employees in places you're applying to. If there are people that look a tad unusual you obviously know you're more likely to be hired even with dreadlocks. Still, you should look as professional as possible.

Maybe consider things like that. No, it's not fair, but it's unfortunately the way it is.

[COLOR="Magenta"]Gurl tell me about it >,> . I will reiterate from my previous responses lol, I do get what professionalism is and whatnot, however, I still fail to see how someone's life and personal choices should be used against them, when they're trying to do right.

Like prison inmates who are released on good behaviour and all that ray.

I've noticed one programme that dedicates itself to helping ex-cons, through the rehabilitation and care of Pitbulls, which is aptly named Pitbulls and Parolees.

But outside of this show, hardly any other job to my knowledge would take on someone with such a history, without some serious conditions and conformation, while meanwhile that person may be over qualified and so forth.

I feel as tho, if a person is dedicated to working and professionally at that, then why should their past/appearance and so forth matter?

Paraplegic people can teach sports, but because they roll around in a wheel chair, that automatically means they don't know what they're doing or are not qualified enough to do so.

I feel like jobs put a limitation on your capabilities, based on how they perceive you and that in this day and age, that's not okay.

If your friend has fabulous, weird ass hairstyles, but is a good worker, than what's the problem? :I

I was raised to not judge people for how they look, I'm not so sure about these employers....

Actually, my last one told me one day, I had to cover up my hair....On the fucking Beach! But I did it regardless and then the next day she told me that my Tam is not presenting a good image for the business and told me to not wear it, so I was like >,>

I even interviewed with her with my locks out, so I don't even know where that all came from T-T

Divinity knows if I have to ask a manager what it would take for me to be acceptable, that inquiry would turn out in a full interrogation on their part :I [/COLOR]


[COLOR="Black"]Whew y'all gave me so much :p

You know I'm just a poor Mulatto ass bitch xD All these big words T-T

But to sum it up,
Professionalism = I get it
Business world= I get it (don't like it tho)
Getting over it = Hard to fucking do, but don't see any alternatives

I just really don't get the whole discrimination thing is general. I know it was integral to human development, but really? My skin colour/hair/who I fuck?

That to me seems really petty >,>
(Yes, getting over it will take a bit :p )[/COLOR]

[Zet]

I totally feel you. No one really hired me when I had dreads, I could apply for 1000 of jobs but all jusy "Nay nay nay nay nay.... Nay nay nay nay nay". But something that I've also head behind my back (not towards me though) was someone saying "Who would hire a fat guy as a chef? I mean they're big, clumpsy, lazy, slow... They will just be in the way and wont work as effecient as a normal person, like who would even want to look like that? Doesn't that show that you're poorly dedicated? Like bitch how hard is it to run? [mumbles out "incompetent swines"] " and as an overweigh guy I found that rather offencive. Not only because of the words, but because of the lack of empathy/sympathy and ignorance, because it doesn't have to mean that you're unhealthy, not ambitious or even slow, some people just have a poor metabolism and it's hard to loose weigh. Some people...

[Sylph]

I need to point out a few things:
First of all, the main reason business are started is to make a profit, nothing else and anyone who may think differently is naive.
Secondly, irrespective of what you, I or anyone thinks a company has the right to project an image for the type of employee it chooses to hire provided it does not transgress any laws. If, we choose to a apply for a position and decide not to conform, it is their decision as to whether they hire us or not. While I would not entertain that sort of bullshit, if you want to work for these firms, lose the attitude and conform? If not, stop complaining and find a firm where brains and initiative are more important than whether you have long hair, short hair or no hair. But you will find that you will probably need to employ some form of conformity for these firms as well!

I hardly feel as if tho I should even explain myself, cause if I have to, I really will develop an "attitude" as you put it <3

And I'd rather not type how I speak, cause I need to be calm to type articulately.