It's so true. There are some days where I feel like no one even believes I am "real". I'm third gender and love men, such a person doesn't exist, right? I bet some people on this forum even think so. Add that to being abused and shamed terribly by my family and I have many issues.
So many days, I feel completely negated as a human being.
However, I don't think I'm very shallow. I've found other ways of "coping". But I really think that Bowyn is onto something. Those shallow gays that hang around the scene in their cliques... well, they are so insecure and cannot open up to the possibility of real love. I'm not saying that our pasts give us enough reason to be mean to others, but that's the defense mechanism that some people choose. They have not found a healthier way. At least not at that point in their lives.
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I find humans very shallow... XD Not all of them, but it's a genderless thing in my opinion.
I also agree with Bowyn and I think sometimes this is a defensive mechanism.
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The question for me is "Why when going to a gay club I feel like I jumped into a shark tank?"
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Bowyn Aerrow Wrote:Grinder is for hook-ups not relationships.
The majority of LGBT have issues - psychological issues. Not because they are LGBT but because of how they are treated for being LGBT.
Even those who have not been personally bashed get it secondhand.
For instance, when someone looks at a car and says 'that car is gay' - they ain't saying that the car has sexual preferences, they are saying that car is gay, which translates to gay = bad.
You are dealing with a group of people who have adopted survivor skills. Yeah sure those skills ain't pretty, but they work. Shallowness or perceived shallowness protects them, protects them from having to open themselves up to more harm - perhaps not the harm of bigotry, but harm nonetheless.
LGBT also tend to have serious relationship 'issues' not because we are LGBT, but by how LGBT relationships are perceived.
We live in a society which tells us daily that LGBT love ain't real love. perhaps not to your face, but every time we are faced with not being able to marry, we are being told exactly that.
All of that negativity we receive gets processed and turned around and comes back out.
Some of us become the jaded old queen, others decide that whilst at the bar we might as well drink until black-out... or cut, or use drugs, or run highly risky sex-capades or take our suppressed anger out on someone we can perceive as less than us in order to make ourself feel better.
That is where the shallowness comes in. And the plastic 'gotta be perfect' aspect - its all about trying to be better, to overcome all of that negativity and place self above others because so many others have place themselves above us.
Quoted because of all the great truths in it.
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Bowyn, that is truly a great post with a lot of insight.
Artyboy, when you say, "Every where I go in the scene…" what are you referring to? Bars and clubs? What is it you're hoping to find that you're not finding? Can that be found in those places?
I'm asking for one thing to point out that different situations or social environments elicit different attitudes and behaviors. A group of guys in a bar are going to act differently than the same group of guys in community center. Maybe not a *lot* differently (depends on who they are and how they see their 'group') but somewhat differently.
When I was first coming out (a very long time ago) I was fortunate to have an older gay mentor who a) didn't take advantage of me and b) helped me understand a lot of things that went on in the 'scene' at that time. I was kind of appalled at how shallow and cliquish so many gay men were and he helped me understand that a lot of those kinds of behaviors are "defense mechanisms" (as Bowyn is pointing out). What I needed and wanted were friends my own age that I could relate to about my own insecurities. That was almost impossible to find. I was too young at the time to be going to bars and clubs but I'd gotten invited to private parties and it was a similar kind of atmosphere. Whenever I was a round a group of guys who already knew one another (many had slept together or had histories with one another) I just didn't seem to 'fit in' with their group. On the other hand, when I had interactions with some of them more one-on-one, they seemed more like 'relatively' nice people (it varied with the person).
I think it is sort of human nature (not just gays) for groups to have their own dynamics. Some groups (rarely) are warm, inviting and inclusive. Others just the opposite. It also partly depends on the environment. People in bars and clubs tend to be more aggressive and negative (in my opinion) where people in social settings that are "safer" (so to say) can be a bit more open.
I was (still am) very much an introvert. Shy, thoughtful, sensitive; I have a need to be in social situations where I feel safe to talk more about deeper things that are going on in me and my life. Many guys, especially gay guys, are different personality types and/or are need very special circumstances for them to feel safe enough to 'open up' and share what is really going on with them. Some are so far from knowing their own inner feelings, they don't even know what they are, let alone how to share them.
So, it depends on what you're hoping for. Not saying you can't find a 'connection' that is meaningful to you in a bar or a club. Sure, it *could* happen, but the chances are less likely. That's like hoping to find friends or a relationship off Grindr. Could happen but not a high probability. Social clubs that aren't about sex or forums such as this are more likely (still not a sure thing, though). It takes time to get to know people beyond the mask (persona) that they wear… and people wear different masks in different settings.
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if you went to a straight nightclub its just the same, guys swarming like locusts over the girls hoping for easy sex - its just where many people like this congregate, but all straight or gay people are like this though
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Without knowing your exact age, I would guess you're under 30. The young who are gay are fighting a war, first with themselves and then with the world which, they assume, is against them. When you see the "shallow" gay men discussing Armani versus Hermes or which scent is really just right or Ferragamo versus Gucci, this reflects their own fascination with themselves...and probably a modest education. As you age you'll find the conversation melds into things like, taxes, a good Orthopaedic surgeon for your bad back, which single malt is really best, what did I ever see in Tom Cruise, the vacation they're going to take with or without a boyfriend, causes they believe in beyond gay marriage indeed their whole focus is beyond gay anything. And, it's true, some of them never grow up, never concede that youth is gone and even drinking embalming fluid isn't helping. They will never learn the (to quote Stella Campbell)"the deep comfort of the double bed after the hurly burly of the chaise lounge...." If they can they'll look back with half amusement half embarrassment that the person they were. Perhaps they've found a nice guy some place unexpected; for once they weren't in a bar but in the library where you knocked off his horned rims and saw the most beautiful eyes....or in traction when the chaplain came in and stayed to offer you all manner of comfort beyond the spiritual. Relationships that would not have been possible at barely 19-20 are now the norm. Look forward to all this even though it means abandoning your glorious youth. I was 13 when I first took a lover-and kept him for 16 years. In those years I went to university, got my graduate degrees and no one would call me shallow. And I would like to think I'm in the majority. The nice guys who don't have time to "go out" or concern themselves with appearances. All that trashy literature about the plumber, the glassier, the pool boy/man have some basis in fact. A young friend of mine found happiness with a UPS driver so one never knows. In the end enjoy being callow and self-centered and don't laugh at others because the are. What you can do when you're really young would look and seem foolish in a few years so do it now. And, when you must, laugh-privately-at the fops who carry it all too far and really are shallow. A friend of mine used to be a senior flight attendant for an airline, one that had Dallas based flight attendants. She said she could always tell they were young and from Dallas when one would say to the other, "Love your ring, hate your hair who did your tits?"
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Wow! Charon, a lover at 13? That's precocious.... and you kept him for 16 years, no bad going.
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Lambert Wrote:seems a lot more do it
Seems a lot more what, do what?
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