Ayn Rand

[Virge]

Write controversial things! Write controversial things!

No one has gotten into a screaming match. No insults have be thrown. This is what discussions are all about.

[Uneunsae]

Most people who discuss capitalism do so within the framework of its "rules". The issue is that these rules only work in a very controlled environment with almost no variable. They are just theory and I will just go out there and say "wishful thinking". Supply and demand is one of those rules. Many armchair economists will argue this rule into the ground, but in reality, it's not how the market works the majority of the time. There are so many variables which come into play here.

Yes, there have already been insults thrown both directly and passive aggressively in this thread and many people talking about things they've never studied or read so it's not a good place to get extremely controversial.

[HumbleTangerine]

No, I'd prefer not to have the CIA show up at my door accusing me of being a terrorist all because I gave my opinions. There are other people, like MikeW, who are more confident and will post thoughts similar to mine sooner or later anyways.

Oh come on, boo! BOOOOOO!

[Virge]

Most people who discuss capitalism do so within the framework of its "rules". The issue is that these rules only work in a very controlled environment with almost no variable. They are just theory and I will just go out there and say "wishful thinking". Supply and demand is one of those rules. Many armchair economists will argue this rule into the ground, but in reality, it's not how the market works the majority of the time. There are so many variables which come into play here.

Yes, there have already been insults thrown both directly and passive aggressively in this thread and many people talking about things they've never studied or read so it's not a good place to get extremely controversial.

You appear to have one thing backwards. You wrote,
"The issue is that these rules only work in a very controlled environment with almost no variable.

Wrong.
When rules (governmental) other than rules of the free market's reason and logic are injected into capitalism it starts the real injustices noncapitalists rant about. 'Free market' actually does mean a highly variable a free market not a 'very controlled environment'

Is capitalism a perfect economic system? No, but which alternative is? Some people like to talk about having a regulated form of capitalism... okay... fine... That brings up a few questions.

Why does the more capitalism is regulated by government the more "inhumane" it seems to become? Plain and simple: Once government gets involved with markets and gets a whiff of the money the small people are forgotten. The government ALWAYS messes things up trying to playing both political ends against the middle.

Also once government begins regulating capitalism why does its regulation keep growing without ever solving more economic problems or injustices than they create? The more they regulate the more wealth is consolidated in the hands of the few instead of being more socialistically "fair." Do you really think that's not all part of the cause and effect of government influencing companies who in turn are influencing government? Just since 2008 the top .05% of the US wealthy gained FIFTEEN PERCENT more of the nation's wealth! Try blaming that on capitalism and conservatives if you want. If you look at the names in that top .05% you'll find that most of them are liberals pushing more socialism.
No kidding! Check it out!
Everyone! open your eyes.

[Uneunsae]

Sorry, you cannot apply black and white thinking to economics.

There is a certain amount of government regulation required to make our current system of capitalism function. Yes, there is a point where TOO MUCH regulation makes it worse, but some is absolutely necessary.

The "free market" you are discussing, without in depth education about it, is just theoretical. That is what the average person does not understand. It only works as it is theoretically intended to do so in a controlled environment. One of those variables being, as I already mentioned, people making rational decisions 100% of the time.

[East]

No one has gotten into a screaming match. No insults have be thrown. This is what discussions are all about.

That is because I ignored some of the comments (like me being mentally ill) and decided to abandon the conversation.

I would have taken the bait some years back but I have learned my lesson.

[Uneunsae]

Also, you should not take for granted some things you might think you are sure about. People have got to start thinking for themselves instead of believing things which they think are "common knowledge". Take supply and demand for example. This "rule" is not so straightforward and the theoretical ways in which this relationship between the two are supposed to exist rarely work. Instead, people should ask, "Okay, so we have this relationship between supply and demand that I always hear and read about... but WHY does it work like that?..." and be curious enough to go find the answers.

What you find might surprise you and make you think differently about everything you thought you ever knew. I don't care what "side" anyone is on. Political affiliation doesn't matter at all. People who don't realize that we are fed propaganda about even the smallest things in life, regardless of affiliation, are the ones that need to "wake up."

[East]

Why is it that people who value individual freedom more than collective well-being are so despised?

My Rand admiring buddy from another board used to ask me why I think he should be a slave to anyone else. He believed in the SELF and had no use for the collective good (except when he did **wink wink** )

I told him that I would answer his question when he would own the fact that he didn't care if other people were slaves and had no access to health care or housing or food...didn't care if they were used up and died as it had no effect on him.

He tried to dazzle me with his wit and redirect the question but it didn't work. He tried to sell me Ronnie Reagan's deregulation as the ultimate marketplace solution that would "take care of all that"....(not even gonna comment on that one )

Of course...the collective good is fine when he needed a service he sought to deny others on a regular basis. When the tea party came along...he got a permanent erection.....

[HumbleTangerine]

My Rand admiring buddy from another board used to ask me why I think he should be a slave to anyone else. He believed in the SELF and had no use for the collective good (except when he did **wink wink** )

I told him that I would answer his question when he would own the fact that he didn't care if other people were slaves and had no access to health care or housing or food...didn't care if they were used up and died as it had no effect on him.

He tried to dazzle me with his wit and redirect the question but it didn't work. He tried to sell me Ronnie Reagan's deregulation as the ultimate marketplace solution that would "take care of all that"....(not even gonna comment on that one )

Of course...the collective good is fine when he needed a service he sought to deny others on a regular basis. When the tea party came along...he got a permanent erection.....

What hypocricy. I can respect people whose values are far detached from my own as long as they stand by them without hypocricy and argue well from their standpoints.

I was born and raised in Sweden. By the standards of my country I'm rather right-wing but from a more international perspective I actually do lean more towards being left-wing. I have no issues with a welfare state, but I have seen what happens when it grows too controlling, too generous to the collective and too punishing to the individual and it's not particularly impressive. It gives me the creeps just thinking how my country would have survived the financial crisis under socialist regime.

I won't deny that there are times when I've wondered what would be worse: Rand's cruel and selfish dog-eat-dog world or a world where my freedoms are gradually and systematically stripped away as part of a governmental agenda to benefit the collective. I guess I usually reach the conclusion that number 1 is worse, but I'm still rather ambiguous.

[Uneunsae]

^ Yes, HumbleTangerine, that's the essence of this type of debate - how can we balance these issues? How can we make things better?

It's not a simple argument of "either-or", but unfortunately, that's what people reduce the issue to and consequently it becomes an argument, and often an uneducated one at that.