Love the sinner hate the sin

[East]

I think of the phrase as a smokescreen and a mask since according to them we are "all" sinners...so why don't they walk up to EVERYONE and announce this love the sinner hate the sin bullcrap?

The other obnoxious thing...they assume so much...like the fact that the book they believe in is the truth for anyone but themselves...or that the word "sin" has any meaning for anyone but themselves.

I would rather have someone say to me "I hate fags"...it is so much nicer to be honest.

[Aike]

It's good reasoning Aike, it is exactly what the church will tell you. Love humanity not the sins of humanity. Except that religion doesn't make exceptions for people who can't, or won't use deductive logic. All the "sheep" are thinking is that even though we are second class citizens, we should still be treated as people. And even that message gets muddled. It boils down to people willfully misinterpreting intent. It is a way for those who believe they are "following god's word" to smile and have something (they believe) is clever to say to our faces, and still hate our guts. It perpetuates hate, even if it wasn't intended to.

Yeah but imagine someone who genuinely follows the principle of "hate the sin, love the sinner". It's easy to say that they're just saying that to cover up their homophobia. Then the whole issue just comes down to some prejudiced and judgmental individuals. But if someone genuinely loved you but still judged you for engaging in homosexual acts, now THAT is horrifying.

[Steve]

I'm on a type of rant roll, so please forgive me. If someone asks a question regarding religion, they best be prepared to hear my answer. If you ask a question that you're not prepared to hear the answer to, or dislike the answer, don't ask the question. Not from me in any case.

I do not mean to disregard the feelings of those who are religious. I do not think less of them. I am only pointing out what I believe is a rational explanation rather than one based upon something based on the supernatural, with little or no evidence upon which to base a valid argument. It does not mean that I am correct and others are wrong. But I do vehemently defend my atheism.

From what is known as the cradle of humankind, thought to be in the vicinity of Johannesburg in south Africa, humans have evolved, moved forward, asking many questions. Eventually some of those questions were, "Where did I come from? Who created this world, solar system, universe? Why am I here?" The need to explain these questions can arguably be called the birth of human religion.

The age of Earth is roughly four and a half (give or take a few billion years) old. That is a long ass time. Most people have very little concept of a hundred years, a thousand years, let alone a hundred thousand years. A time frame such as a million years or a billion years in nearly incomprehensible to most people. Hell, mankind has trouble loving, honoring and obeying the length of marriage vows let alone lengths of time that seem to stretch without end into the linear time of history.

Indeed, something, either from meteor, intelligent outside influence, or only a happenstance confluence of events led life to crawl out of primordial slime. Atheists usually believe a natural occurrence created life. Those who believe in god rely on an intelligent outside source which has created and guides everything the senses register. Rarely is there much middle ground discussed. Agnosticism, admittedly reducing it to simplicity, doesn't really attempt to explain the origins of life, but rather remains neutral in its belief. Switzerland as it were. There may be a god, but it is equally possible that god does not exist.

The need to answer these unknowns spread through the chain of humanity. Egyptians assigned gods to known phenomena: the sun, the moon, the desert, storms, and evil (the last three involving the god named Set). Greece adopted the notion that many gods were responsible for different phenomena. There is evidence that Greece reinvented ancient Buddhism (see Pyrrhonism). If true ties to Asian culture were formed. Romans conscripted Greek gods, renaming them, and often reassigning purpose. The intervening period saw the reinvention of multiple Greek gods, symbols and rituals. Years later thanks to the brilliance of Emperor Constantine who, sick of religious intolerance and sensing the cusp of a failing empire, had a vision of Christ. Christ's rise years earlier as a voice of the one true god was nearly swallowed by Rome. Now it was ushered in, increasing religious tolerance and a more peaceful existence.

My point (while glossing over myriad historical details for the sake of time and accuracy) is that man has all too often reinvented religion to fit the needs of people. This reinvention has in large part helped the people who shaped it to fit personal belief and the need to maintain control and power.

Christianity taught us many valuable things. Murder was wrong. Stealing was wrong. Honoring elders was taught. Lies became sins. Obligation to truthfulness became a standard.

And then we mired in that elevation of thinking, adding bits and pieces to the lore which separated the true believers, the most valued and ethical people, from those who didn't strictly follow the path of salvation. Those who questioned authority. Homosexuality although naturally occurring in early cultures, was abolished bit by bit by the rising hostility of Christian belief. A natural sexual practice supposedly created by an all knowing higher power was banned from practice by people who found it distasteful, or couldn't push it into the box of religious belief. Another example of man shaping god rather than god shaping mankind. Another example of a contradiction between the natural world and man made religion.

Civilization has stubbornly not moved from its need to have existence explained neatly and collectively on a platter. Instead progress has constipated, ignoring new scientific evidence, twisting such evidence to favor old outdated belief. Conveniently religion warns against the pride of mankind usurping the role of god through reason and logic.

So here we are, trapped between the past, a period of growth as a culture during which we learned valuable lessons, and a future blocked by a weighted powerful, rich anvil which tells us we must remain anchored to the past. Civilization is mired down by the elevation of one belief to an all knowing all seeing answer to the ills of life.

Evolution must be allowed to continue. The great push forward must be continued. Adding truth, substantiated though the trial and error that is scientific method, new discoveries, new theories, exploration of areas we have little or no knowledge of, must be incorporated into what we have learned from the past. Mistakes will be made, upon which we will learn and correct our course. But we cannot forever remain what we were.

I do not believe in any all knowing force which created and guides us. The idea makes little sense to me. Not just in terms of the current ill reasoned and poorly constructed religion which holds us hostage and prevents societal growth. Design is only evolution. Creation happens all by itself as it fulfills the need to move in any direction. The entire universe was created in terms of a time span that humans cannot yet conceive, and of dimensional space which is yet unknown. Nothing guides this. The need to explain that which does not need explanation, but simply happens as a result of a natural progression in many directions does not require the existence of an all knowing, all seeing omnipotent god. Existence, for me, simply is.

The idea of heaven, an after life, is ridiculous. That I am aware of, existence has a beginning, a middle and an end. It's beginning is usually happenstance, its middle is progression in one manner or other, and its end is the finish. What begins, exists, and ends may affect other beginnings, existences, and endings, but that is all. Nothing lay beyond the end. The idea that we will see everyone we have ever loved in a place of perfection is nothing short of a desperate wish to continue without end. It is the subconscious mind's attempt to refute the truth. We all die.

Predestination is ludicrous. Free will may not always occur, but it has no bearing on the existence of a higher power. Not much looks after our lives that isn't already a part of our place in this world and time. There is no god creating miracles of life and death. Circumstance, coincidence and happenstance exist. These provide instances of life and death. That which seems without explanation has nothing to do with a higher power. What cannot yet be explained is simply not known. May never be known. May be known someday.

Until someone or something can prove to me that god exists, I do not believe in something that none of my five senses and no scientific study of quality without bias can substantiate. I understand faith. I can have faith. But I can only have faith in those nouns which bear the weight of reality.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Aike-
Yeah but imagine someone who genuinely follows the principle of "hate the sin, love the sinner". It's easy to say that they're just saying that to cover up their homophobia. Then the whole issue just comes down to some prejudiced and judgmental individuals. But if someone genuinely loved you but still judged you for engaging in homosexual acts, now THAT is horrifying.

I really do understand Aike, I'm not trying to pick a fight (and I'm happy that we can discuss this like rational people).

I agree when you empathize (despite your own beliefs) with the people who genuinely understand, believe and practice what the church intended when that nugget of wisdom was rolled out. It is much better than being judged and hated.

The fundamental flaw in the logic of that proclamation is that I'm still being judged, and a large part of me hated, for something I had no control over. I never had a choice between heterosexuality and homosexuality. The only choice I ever had was whether to lie or tell the truth.

Telling people to love me despite my flaws is all well and good. Telling people to love me, but hate the flaws their god hard wired into my essence is disingenuous at best. It still, even if only by half, propagates hate. No one, least of all the church which espouses unconditional love, should be a proponent of hate. "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is merely a way to qualify hate. Telling people that it is permissible to partially hate people is a slippery slope.

[WolfEyes300]

Whaoh... crazy topic...
Hi there by the way, how y'all doin? Ok I just wanted to share me thoughts on this this topic, maybe people won't agree with me but this is just running wild in me head and I just have to get it out one way or another!!
So, I'm not religious, wasn't brought up in a religious family and religion has only prperly come into my life recently due to certain *dramas* and I'll leave it at that... So... ok no offense here but why does any of ye care what religious people think? Huh? I mean, if ye feel so strongly about how wrong they are to judge us (homosexuals) than why go any where near them? I'm not trying to back up the religious/ old fashioned way of thinking but I don't agree with the negativity that is brewing here. Yes, it is totally unforgiveable what some religious people are still saying, but if we stoop down low enough to just even allow ourselves to get angry with it then what is the point. ..? What is the point? Everywhere we go there will be at least one person who will be homophobic, so if we can't put up with it now then how will we ever jump over this hurdle? Acceptance... why? Why do we need acceptance? I think that it is our human nature, we crave it, and if we don't get enough of it then we start to get withdrawal symptoms... I don't believe that in me lifetime we will ever be accepted by everyone. So I just ignore them... why would I want to be anywhere near anyone who thinks that I am a sin? That I chose to be who I am, that I chose this challenging, tearful journey that could ben
dangerous and life threatening. .. but also amazing! !!!
This is just what was running through my head at the time... it kinda feels much better to finally get all that out... please, I meant no offence from what I have said... if I have then please inform me whether that is through this thread or by a personal message I will apologise to ye and ask what it is exactly that has effected ye.
Would love to hear your thoughts. ..
Wolf...

[Iceblink]

It matters what they think, because many are using their religious reasons to advocate against rights and protections for some of us. They rally against discrimination protection in housing, jobs, accommodations. They rally against marriage equality. I have read and heard the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" so often, but I cannot think of one time where it was followed by "so you should have the same rights as everyone else." Instead, it always comes up in conversations where the person is trying to defend their position of being against your equality.

A couple days ago there was a thread here about two young women in Malaysia whose apartment was raided by the Johor Islamic Religious Department in that country. A sex toy was found among the women's belongings and they have been accused of being lesbians. If convicted, they face three months in jail and six cane strokes. For these women, it really does matter what religious people think.

[Pix]

I can tell you from experience that in the Bible Belt kids felt no problem saying things like, "I love you as your brother in Christ but hate you as a person." Sometimes just before the violence started. Of course adults tend to be at least a little more sophisticated in their sophistry.

And I know one fundie Christian who believes she's the most loving person in the world because Jesus made her so...while openly talking about how she gets revenge (with a smile on her face) to stating openly that every man, woman, and child who is born a Muslim must be put to death, no matter how decent they seem. There's some Biblical reasoning she uses that I'm not clear on to defend this belief, but strangest of all she thinks those who argue with her are the ones being hateful!

Still, one of the most disturbing incidents was when my partner's then 12-year-old daughter gave her a pamphlet to read (home made, no copyright) on why Christians had a DUTY to not only hate the sin of homosexuality, but also the sinners (it included Bible verses on having us put to death and the "murder on OUR hands" rather than theirs as well as that god damned Romans 1), which she'd made our girl read first before having her deliver it to her mom. While I've experienced much more intense hate personally there was something just incredibly scary that our girl had been stopped and given that, it was like a threat.

She had kids as well, I wonder how she and her church would've reacted if I gave HER kids pamphlets, made them read it and then deliver it to her on why Christians are evil dumb asses who need to be executed for the good of society and one owes it to the planet to become gay instead of breed how they'd react? 'Course Christians like her aren't known for either their empathy or ability to place themselves in someone's shoes and the Golden Rule (let alone recognizing their own hypocrisy) is thus beyond the ability of their highly dysfunctional brains to grasp.