Houston battle has BIG national implications

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Bowyn you are completely wrong and wasted a bunch of words.


Most of the time when I start a thread on something I fact check myself to be sure I'm right it. This time I didn't need to because I've been reading up on tax exempt status for churches and knew about it going back all the way to Bill Clinton's white House taking down some churches for exactly what the churches in Houston have done.

All you had to do was google "church loses tax exempt status" to find a few pages of info about all the times governments have pressed charges against churches for using the pulpit as a political instrument. It IS NOT a violation of the 1st amendment. but they lie and say it is --- the same way they lie about so many other things.

So you are saying that the government is flawless and actually keeps to the law of the land?

They are using the tax exemption (which itself is not constitutional BTW) to influence what is said on the pulpit. This is in contrast to the first Amendment.

Which is one reason why many want to end tax exemption, it is being used as a tool to influence religion, to force religion to adhere to the Governments Doctrine.

Preach what we want and we will let you slide on paying taxes, refuse to preach the Doctrine of the Federal Government and we will punish you by charging taxes.

Tax Exemption is being abused by both the government and churches.

This is prohibiting the free operation of the church to preach what they want. It may not be congress directly making a law to stop churches from saying certain things, but it does infringe on the spirit of the First Amendment which was to keep government from deciding what is and is not said in churches.

Tax Exemption status for churches was a 'social contract' that was supposed to give Churches a break so they could funnel that money into social services for the community. It was never meant to be used as a tool to direct the sermons of the pulpits.

And clearly Huston knows they did wrong: http://personalliberty.com/update-housto...-backlash/

"According to KHOU-TV, Houston mayor Annise Parker issued a statement Wednesday describing the wording of the subpoenas as “overly broad,” but said that social conservatives had intentionally misinterpreted their intent."

(My emphasis) So they already knew this hound wasn't going to hunt.

And for the record, I have been at this game a bit longer than you... While you were in diapers I was arguing the merits of Tax Exemption status, gays and the problems they poise for 'traditional' church doctrine and other such things.

I know both sides of the argument well - too well. I also know the theological implications as well as the more secular impact of what preaching from the pulpit does and does not do and the affect it has on polls and votes.

What you fail to understand is your generation has decided to be godless heathens and not go to church :tongue: - the average age of church goers is now 45 years of age. Church has lost its popularity with youth.

The pulpit may still have its say on the majority of the population that still votes (old people) it has no power over the coming generation of old people who will hold the real power. Because you sinners are flat refusing to listen to the pulpit. :tongue:

20 years from now, when your generation gets all scared of mortality and star seeking the comforts of theology to help you sleep at ease, you will be going to a church which has a rather different opinion on the matter of gays, gay marriage, and lots of other social issues.

Not because government forced the issue, but because your generation is hella tolerant compared to my generation, which was more tolerant than the generation before it.

[CuriousPhoenix]

Of course, we aren't going to church anymore. How many times in the past 20 years has a mega church with a popular minister been rocked by scandals, either sexual or financial? A lot. Then you add in the fact that the catholic church has its own sex scandal. Then we hear them spewing hateful messages, while everyone else preaches tolerance and diversity. Churches have lost their moral high ground in this day and age. My generation and the ones after are going to be more accepting of everyone than ever before.

Example: The church I grew up in decided to get a new minister because they didn't like the minister anymore. Well the basically forced the congregation to accept the one the deacons found. So we left because he was only a minister on Sundays and did no counseling or visits to the congregation. Well a few years later, one of the members transferred to the church my grandparents went too. Turns out that the minister cheated on his wife with a member of the congregation. He was fired, but stayed at the church, and went into marriage counseling.

[Borg69]

IMO churches have always been much like the government... a way to control people and exploit them for money through fear. Give... give as much as you can for your enrichment and salvation. Pay us enough and WE will save you and make you prosperous. They're Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes, bullies, mafia, ... all rolled into one. They're also both hypocrites... do as I say, not as I do... above the very laws they preach. Exploit the people. Sell them your snake oil. There's a fool born every minute.

Pay your taxes and fill those collection plates and don't ask too many questions. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[CellarDweller]

Huh? It's impossible for them to feel more like they have a right to impose their views than they do already.

Oh, not true my friend. Not to the extent that they do.

As someone who was raised in the Catholic church, spent his first 20 years there, and had two brothers who became altar boys, I can tell you one thing that plagues the church more than the 'sins' they claim to be against.

Apathy.

I can't tell you how many projects I've seen started over the decades, that never get off the ground, or grind to a halt because the people that attend the churches are too busy with their own lives.

And what about the church leaders? They truly don't care about these projects....as long as the members show up on Sundays and holy days, and fill the collection plate.

Now.......let's say those plates start to get taxed. Then suddenly the leaders have a real reason to get their congregations fired up. Haven't you ever heard "Hit 'em where it hurts, in their wallet." If the government goes after their collections, suddenly the "war on religion" seems even more real. How do you stop those people from taking your money? Vote the ones who support it out of office, which only encourages the preachers to fan the flames and spur their flocks to the voting booths, and to donate even more to support their causes. If they're going to be taxed, damn it, they'll make sure their voices are heard on capital hill.

Let them stay tax - exempt, let them stay apathetic, while we fight the good fight for ourselves.

[Virge]

[SIZE="7"][COLOR="Red"]PLEASE let's get back to the topic and drop all the sides issues.
[/COLOR][/SIZE]
The issue is
Lawyers in the City of Houston were seeking evidence that churches in that area had violated the rules that they must follow in order to keep their 501(c 3) tax exempt status by using their churches, money, congregations and sermons to organize efforts against the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance (HERO) that was passed 11 to 6 by the city council to stop discrimination against LGBTs.

There's no doubt that the churches did and it has already been documented -- BUT the State of Texas is not pursuing any investigation of this and neither is the IRS (it's an election year)

The fundamentalists are trying to force a city wide ballot to repeal HERO. If they succeed this tactic will be picked up by fundamentalist nationwide as a means of overturning other similar Pro Equality legislation.

Soon fundamentalists are already organizing to petition for a referendums in other cities with similar ordinances. Then they will go for states with the same ordinances .
Then San Antonio....
Springdale, Utah
Salt Lake City
Michigan City
Lincoln Nebraska

This is how these people work.

Failure to fight this goes right back to what Cellar Dweller said above about Apathy

Every single one of us ought to be aware of this and watch churches in our area who are using their buildings, sermons, staff and resources for political purposes and report them.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Um I think you missed what Cellar said. He was talking about the apathy in the church.

Our attacking their tax exemption becomes 'persecution of Christians' - Yeah I know, pity we don't have lions in the USA and we can't use the stadiums for modern sport for watching lions eating Christians, so we can live up to their expectations and give them the whole persecution thing they so desperately desire.

Before 2004 nary a single state had gay marriage. Its now 2014 and 30 states have gay marriage. There are somewhere between 50 and 57 states to the union (Ask President Obama:biggrin So no matter what, a majority of states have gay marriage.

Such a profound change in a decade for a nation that is as large and diverse as it is cannot be undone, let alone stopped. We saw what legalizing Interracial Marriage was like, a majority of states threw in the towel, seeing reason, it took a federal mandate to force the less reasonable states in line.

AND on top of that, a lot more discrimination laws popped up because we as a society were seeing blacks as more than just blacks.

No its not perfect, because laws can force individuals to change their mind.

Yes there are fundamental churches which are still totally and wholly against the mixing of the Races, they are toothless and clawless and know if they try to pursue their agenda they will be laughed at.

The same thing will happen with gay rights, the fundamental churches that will always and forever be opposed will dwindle down in size and eventually have no power because they know they will be laughed at.

The Pope in Rome as recently broached the subject and appears to be pro-LGBT. Yes the Cardinals appeared to decide to throw down on the matter, but church politics being what they are the stage is set for a gradual switch over from 'doctrinal anti LGBT sentiments' to one of tolerance, acceptance and undoubtedly by the time you are my age two men getting married in a Catholic Church will be old news.

Seriously, there is no need to swing this axe against these churches. They lost.

Their whole deal now is to continue fighting and tilting at this windmill because if they stop now they lose face (and dollars in the plate). They have to keep up the appearance that they gave it all they got because their whole internal doctrinal practice depends on them being 'better than'.

[Virge]

The things Dweller said about Apathy apply to apathy in general.

I'm not going to waste anymore words trying to explain why you are wrong in your reasoning that the battle is over. I'll just wait for you to see how wrong you are when the Houston ordinance is overturned and then others follow.

You say the churches have lost. Really? Try telling them that. While gays nationwide are doing nothing fundamentalists are coordinating nationwide for another attack on gays. You can bet they'll be funneling millions of dollars to Houston to make sure the referendum is held and the ordinance is defeated.

You fail to understand for them this is far from over and they'll stop at nothing to impose their will.

[Bowyn Aerrow]

Excuse me Mr. I went to hospital a few days ago, shouldn't you be in bed sleeping?

The thing is that we have the ACLU and other organizations that have the legal aspects all under control.

I know how inter and inner church politics work. I was a minister, and have been actively papering sacred institutions with letters guiding clergy and laity toward tolerance and acceptance since you were in diapers. What I like to call a 'whisper campaign'.

There are a lot of people, ex and active clergy who whispered into the years of members of all churches about love, tolerance and lets relook at this whole non-acceptance of the LGBT and reconsider. As a product of that the Anglican/Episcopal Church went from a zero tolerance policy to having gay bishops and having gay ceremonies of weddings. While its not total agreement, over the past 25 years there has been a major shift: http://christianteens.about.com/od/homos...mosexu.htm

http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/ tells the story. Lots of churches of many denominations are LGBT affirming.

http://www.gaychurch.org/affirming-churc...13-survey/

Goes into detail about the LGBT being accepted by more churches.



Is a graphic illustration of change over time.

That page also has other graphs and break downs of individual churches from various denominations.

Now I know this may not seem like a big increase, but go back to 1970 and good luck finding any gay affirming churches, go back to 1950 and there were absolutely none that would accept LGBT.

Even His Holiness Pope Francis is not wholly opposed to The Gay.

Pope Francis Pushes the Church Another Step Further on Gays

While that may not seem like a huge move to you, this is an institution that is about 2000 years old, its got a lot of momentum and inertial it has to overcome to make course corrections. So it takes a decent chunk of time to overcome those 2000 years of tradition and put the church on a new course. But its happening.

I doubt you understand how religion works and how Religious Organizations (Churches) function and their inner politics bangs out change. These institution have traditions of centuries that are hard to just throw away, they have to save face and try to show their congregation that they haven't been spouting lies for centuries. If they admit they have been lying their congregation walks.

Church attendance has been dropping steadily since the 1990's. Less than 20% of Americans attend church on a regular basis, and again the majority of them are old people who are following habitual behaviors ingrained in them way back when Church Attendance was high.

The church era is coming to a close. They no longer hold that much power, and true they may try to pursue legal debate, but seriously how many of those have they really won over the long term?

30 states now have gay marriage. And each and everyone of them the Churches struggled and fought to keep from going to hell which is called 'gay marriage'.