fenris Wrote:... if we have a Christian here who open and enlightened deal with his faith and allows a much more liberal view, we should probably support him rather than reject .... no matter where one stands on this belief. ...
Every liberal Christian, we reject by our thoughts about Christianity is a loss and one to much ... and thus supports the gay haters among Christians ...
As always, fenris, a thoughtful contribution to the discussion. However it may appear to the contrary, I do not reserve any special contempt for Christians, but I do reserve the right to resist any assertion based on faith in a being, or beings, whose existence has never and, in all likelihood, will never be proven. If someone's faith is so fragile that what they believe cannot stand up before a differently reasoned point of view, they might be better off basing what they do in life on something a little more substantial. If any creature in this world was created in its own god's image I would say it would be more likely to be the eye-boring parasite which (if you will indulge me a touch of anthropomorphism) must be thanking its god for its daily bread.
No one should expect to make a statement to the effect that they are the product of a cosmic manufacturer who somehow "loves" them, but who more than that "does not make mistakes" and remain unchallenged. A belief in the infallibility of non-existent beings has kept people in poverty, danger and ignorance since the beginning of conscious thought.
In case you missed it I'll repeat that I have no problem with people explaining their lives in whatever way makes sense to them, but once they bring those ideas into a public medium they had better be prepared to encounter questions and other points of view. Ideas and beliefs stand or fall by their merits and more especially by their outcomes and those concerning the infallibility of mystical beings were weighed in the balance and found wanting long ago. Our progress as a species towards greater health, sanity, fairness and compassion has often been achieved despite the best efforts of the loudest voices among the faithful to impede it. The meeker folk who feel they have no reason to express a contrary point of view have just let the bullies get on with it. That is collusion by any definition. Any member of any faith community who has challenged an orthodoxy that states we must suffer now, because rewards will come our way after we're dead, has usually done so at great personal cost. It interferes with some very powerful interests.
I don't get at all the idea that religious convictions are somehow immune from scrutiny. As I see it, anyone is welcome here to discuss matters of interest and concern to our queer communities, even if those ideas concern matters of faith. Despite years of denial and attempts to behave to the contrary I am and always have been gay. I don't see this changing in my lifetime. Painful a process as it is one can work through the burden of a religious upbringing to begin to take personal responsibility for the way one behaves towards others. My conclusion from this is that religious belief is one of life's bolt-ons. Sexual orientation is not. I am fascinated by other people's religious beliefs and have often had long discussions about them. Strange that, however moderate they might appear to be, I'm the one who always feels as though I must not disturb the edifice of their faith, whatever they say about me being gay. Evidence of a few messages I have posted to this forum will show that I, among many here, do our best to support our fellow contributors. The Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Pagan, rationalist or whatever will receive the same support, courtesy and consideration as anyone else. Anything anyone writes here could make someone question his faith. We should have nothing to fear from questions. Nothing anyone says, though, is going to turn a gay man straight or a straight man gay.
This is not a tomato
New (Question on Faith and Homosexuality, the relationship between the two)
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