Ayaan Hirisi Ali abd Sharia Law

[Virge]

[MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] said
"Well Virge...I think EVERYONE is racist..everyone...and I mean everyone. To what degree is the real question...and is someone able to separate their racism and remain objective...."
Good point. I have to agree. I think everyone definitely has the potential to devolve into being a racist or some other "ist."

"No...this is false.

These are American Muslims in Washington DC.....

Yeah....I know...SOME Muslims don't believe this...but ALOT OF THEM DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That was a stupid of me. I was thinking about my Muslim friends here when I wrote that. I've got to agree with you about the types in the video. I've run into them too and they make me get tense real fast. I just don't concentrate too much on them. The ones I know here who own a cafe are so great Jay and I go there about every time we drive into RC just to have coffee and talk with them.
Funny quick story. The owner's aunt has come to help. Her English is not good at all but he put her on the register so she can talk to people and learn. I picked Jay up at the clinic adn we went there for lunch one day defore our 'crisis'. The owner knows about us and must have explained to her we're a couple. When we got up to the register I already knew what it was going to cost. One plate lunch with drink times two ($7.35 x 2 = $14.70) She told me $11.03 so I knew she made a mistake and tried to help her figure out what she'd done wrong. She pointed to the sign on the wall behind her and asked 'See the sign I make for today. Equal is equal for you nice men too?'.... the sign said "Valentineday Lunch Special. Wifes and SweetHearts half price". Then she smiled, "I know this because my son is like you men. Gay too." Something like goes a long way to help you forget all the Muslims not like her. Since then she's been Aunt Miriam to us.

I see your point in the last comment. I was thinking in terms of individual liberty. The least government in my life the better for government and for me as far as I'm concerned. "I pay my taxes, I obey the laws, go away. I'm busy running my life and don't need your help."

[East]

^^^ Actually...as I have cited many times when I have defended Islam...Muslims in the US generally favor marriage equality and are right up there with Catholics and even Christians who favor it.

I have worked for three Persian guys...loved them. They knew I was gay and two of them were flirty as fuck...and hot too. The only guy who ever made me shake because I was so turned on was Middle Eastern. The beautiful woman we set up next to a lot at trade shows started to cry a little with happiness from Jordan when she found out how long me and my lover have been together...and she thanked us for telling her our story...love her.

The sexy Syrian man who makes us falafels at this one place is extremely nice to us BECAUSE we are gay...he makes our food with great care and always gives us extra stuff....

The Afghani man and his wife who I have known for years considers us part of their family...and knows we are gay. I adore them.

This one Assyrian man I know...another flirt with me and my BF...and so nice and a reallyt beautiful man inside and out....

A Lebanese woman I used to do a lot of business with before she moved away...we were very good friends with her...

So many of our customers are Middle Eastern...mostly Persian (Iranian)...and they are a pleasure to deal with....

I could make a longer list of Christians I adore...

The problem though...the extremists..and the people who agree with them...are very dangerous...and I am about to tell you one of the problems I have on the internet so maybe it clears up something for anyone reading...

In my day to day life 3-D world...I trust that the people who I talk to understand my intentions and know where I am coming from. I take great pains to communicate clearly and not put everyone is any one category...and it is so much easier in person....

I try to make it clear I have no problem with anyone who believes anything spiritual as long as their belief doesn't make rules for anyone else but them....

When someone uses their belief to bash anyone else...or thinks they have a direct line to Sky Daddy to do crap in Sky Daddy's name and pretend they are doing it all for Sky Daddy...I think they are scary...and evil....and those are the people I am talking about...but how the fuck am I gonna explain that over and over?

The Jews didn't flee Europe because they considered themselves Austrians...or Germans...or Hungarians...and they couldn't imagine that the danger was real....

...and letting these extremists get anywhere...and not standing up to them...is a bad idea. History always repeats itself...people repeat that over and over...but when it is happening in front of them...they seem to forget that.

I think ALL religious fanatics...INCLUDING ISLAMISTS...are a very real threat to the entire world...and as a Liberal...I totally "get" that they are not all like that...but how do I separate and make the distinction?

...and as a Liberal...I feel sick hearing other liberals defend them blindly and seemingly forgetting that they kill our gay brothers....and I wish they would see the photo of the five of them hanging before they continue saying it is none of their concern...because human rights are always a concern for liberals otherwise...

...and this is what prompted me to make the topic in the first place...

[ChadCoxRox]

I sure hope the value in the comments made won't go overlooked because of any personality classes. Being sort of "on the outside looking in" having not been active here in a long time, I just feel compelled here because the opportunity is quite real and poignant. I totally enjoy each GS participant here in this thread and I respect how each have strong minds expressed with beauty, humor, candor and thoughtfulness. That said, I think the REAL value in this thread aside from the subject matter might be in the process of discerning and accepting genuine and factual feedback for broadening awareness and understanding. I wish that for all and I enjoyed reading this thread.

In the end my own stance on the organized religion and secularism state of affairs around the world is, if it is about engaging in hatred or hatefulness, even for the sake of clarification, determination or whatever else, I simply want no part of it. Life's too short on my end of it and it's too full of amazing and wondrous alternatives!

Now back to the back yard ya'll!

[Virge]

Sarcasm, rudeness, dogmatism etc are expressed through writing too. Consciously or not. Your posts in this thread contain all three, or so it seems to me. Apart from that, I agree with you, dogmatism is scary; I'm scared of those who think they have a monopoly on reason. Usually, they're the dogmatist par excellence, the kind who let the facts speak as if facts could tell us anything by themselves. Lastly, I'd say that your privileging of reason is most probably based on some feeling.

I didn't see your reply this morning.
You're right, I can be sarcastic and I can be rude. Most times I’m not.
Imagine going in a store and making a purchase. You pay the store owner and he gives you silly fake money as your change. Would you be polite about it about him passing the the fake money to you as if it is real?

It’s the same way in the sphere of debating issues and ideas. Accepting unreasoned arguments as real is the same as accepting counterfeit money. There’s no better example than the debate over evolution and creationism. One side, (evolution) bases their beliefs on facts and reason, scientific research and evidence and the theories that research and evidence lead them to. One side (creationists) bases their beliefs on their beliefs. In the US where they’ve been proven to be ridiculous they’ve resorted to lies and fake science to try to win the argument. People who present counterfeit reason as real should never have their arguments received with courtesy anymore that a shop owner giving you fake money.

As far as being a dogmatist… When someone passes off counterfeit reasoning I’ll be as emphatic about not accepting it as I’d be about accepting counterfeit money. That could appear dogmatic I suppose. If you accept anything counterfeit all you are doing is accepting it as equal to the real thing and be expected to from then on.

I got a chuckle from the line where you seem to be implying that I act like I have a monopoly on reason. Everyone of us is pretty much given the same ability to use it but many don’t take advantage of it… the same way all of us have pretty much the same ability to stay in shape and keep a set of abs. The harder you work at both the better they become.

[Virge]

[MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION]
IMO there’s no such thing as a political or religious extreme that doesn’t have the potential for being dangerous. It doesn’t matter what you call them or where they come from on the menus of religions or politics.

You said:
[COLOR="Blue"]“As a Liberal...I feel sick hearing other liberals defend them blindly and seemingly forgetting that they kill our gay brothers....and I wish they would see the photo of the five of them hanging before they continue saying it is none of their concern...because human rights are always a concern for liberals otherwise….”
[/COLOR]
I’m with you 100% on that as much as we are both sick of hearing US politicians pandering to the extremists for votes by ridiculous statements and measures against gay marriage. I gave you what I think causes it. Since then I’ve spent time reading other opinions on the internet that take tin foil hats and the IQs of a dead rats to believe.

But there’s something else about it that I thought of. Just agree for the sake of argument that at least 75% of liberals and 75% of all conservatives are low information voters who operate off feelings and ideologies alone or along with news sources that only confirm their feelings and ideologies. Those media news sources will put out any information that will help them with ratings of views to get advertising dollars. So, it’s in their best interests to feed their audiences what the audiences want to hear. Screw the real news or the facts. They are as big a part of the problem as the instinctive reaction of liberals to take an opposing stand to anything conservatives support.

[Iceblink]

From my vantage point, I tend to want to defend the rights of ANY minority (regardless of the fact that there are many within any minority with whom I may disagree or strongly oppose). I abhor fundamentalist Christians, for example, but I support their right to HAVE their faith and to EXPRESS it in free speech. What I've seen repeatedly coming from both a and b is an attempt to get me to PERCEIVE the Muslim faith from a PREJUDICED point of view. This is what I refuse to do and this refusal is experienced by a and b as "defending Islam".

It isn't. It's defending the rights of all people to believe whatever the hell they want to believe and to express that belief publicly. True, religious and ideological "fundamentalism," indeed fascism in general, is a potential THREAT to liberty. I don't deny that. What I do deny is that one can protect liberty by denying it to others.

I do want to defend free speech....

One thing to remember, freedom of religion and freedom of speech has absolutely no freedom from being criticized, even harshly criticized, for their religion, their beliefs, and their speech, and that goes for those of Christian, Islamic, or Jewish faiths that might have more moderate or liberal beliefs of their religion as well as the fundamentalists.

It is probably not a surprise to anyone here that has seen some of my posts that I am not a fan of organized religion, but my criticism extends farther than just the fundamentalists, but also to those of religion with more moderate views, because, and I referring right now to Christians, but it can sometimes also be applied to Islam, with the mostly silence of more moderate Christians, they have allowed those with awful, far-right fundamentalist views to have the voice and control from public point of view of the religion. When a pastor in Arizona says gays should be stoned to death, when some nut case in California tries to get a proposal on the ballots that gays should be executed, when NOM Chairman John Eastman teams up with the Family Research Council and announces that he hopes Uganda quickly reinstates its life imprisonment for gays policy because they were only following their "Christian beliefs," and I hear almost nothing from the more moderate and liberal Christians except for the occasional weak arguments "He's not a real Christian" or the even weaker "Thou shalt not judge," you hand them control of the religion as far as public perception goes. Their vile, hateful version of Christianity fills the airwaves and internet comments and largely goes unchallenged from those Christians with differing views. But you know what will spring into action these more moderate and liberal Christians? Defending themselves when someone makes a general statement against the religion after one of these hateful, ignorant Christians has done or said something stupid. A Christian pastor preaching that gays should be stoned to death was not enough to bring them to take a public stand, but someone criticizing the religion was just too much, that could not stand. I do sometimes see the argument of pointing out the other parts of Leviticus these hateful Christians overlook and do not follow, but that is from people of no religion or not much religion pointing out their hypocrisy. When the voice of the haters in Christianity is many times louder than that from the other side, what do you expect people to think? In their silence, I am just suppose to guess these more tolerant Christians, and more tolerant Muslims, are out there? Remember the old saying, Silence=Death.

About that "They're not real Christians" line, sorry, but yes they are. There is no test of Biblical knowledge a person must take, It is not some club where you must take some kind of oath or pledge or else your application is rejected. I have even heard President Obama say that ISIS are not a part of Islam, but it is just not true. There are two Muslim members of the U.S. House and they both voted for repeal DADT, both support ENDA, and both support marriage equality and that is a good thing, but that freedom of religion we hold so dear means that those people in ISIS dropping gays head first off tall buildings are also Muslim.

How powerful are they in YOUR life? Do they have the power to take away YOUR freedom in any sense of the word?

This is why I do not speak a lot about Islam. In a forum site like this where most of the discussion in lgbt rights and politics concerns life in the Western world, they simply do not have that much influence. Those of Islamic faith in the U.S. are currently just over 1% of the population and by 2050 are expected to be just 2%. Those of no religion, growing faster in numbers than any religion, is expected to be more than a third of the population by then and I welcome that. There are two Muslims elected to a federal office and only 10 in states legislatures. Gay rights legislation or anti-gay legislation is not going to pass or fail due to Muslim politicians or citizens voting based on their faith. Legislation in the U.S. to give lgbt rights has failed and anti-gay legislation has passed based on people voting because of their Christian faith and when votes on rights have failed and anti-gay legislation has passed, the reason was based almost entirely on someone's Christian faith and nothing else. Some might say I am being unfair, but there is no getting around the fact that same-sex marriage bans passed in so many states, that gays and lesbians can still not marry in 13 states, that there is still no federal legislation to protect lgbt people from discrimination in employment, housing, education, and accommodations is because of Christianity. As far as the battle for equality goes, in the U.S., that is where the focus of the opposition needs to be,

Sorry you good Christians, Jews, and Muslims, but I want you to be as outraged by a gay or lesbian who had been employed at a job for years and did a good job that is suddenly fired when the employer learned of his or her sexual orientation by a wedding announcement in the local paper as you are about generalizations made about your religion. I want you to be as outraged by the gay man thrown head first off a building. Until then, I do not have a lot of sympathy for your predicament. If you feel these things are not what your religion is about, then confront those people of your religion that hold those views instead of confronting me about my perceptions of your religion. Speak up about what makes your religion inclusive and tolerant, that is how you change the perception of your religion and please make it something more than the weak "That's not a real Christian," "That's not a real Muslim." or "Thou shalt not judge" arguments, because that is not saying much.

[Buzzer]

..WHY DO SO MANY LIBERALS DEFEND ISLAM?????????????????????

Hi East!

You know me really well and for years, so I'm just answering this question just to answer it.

Here's the position I always find myself in (as a liberal.) I never defend "Islam's beliefs", "Islam's teachings", or the practices of "Islam's various extreme/violent/militant sects." I will however, point out similarities (theological or historical) between Islam and Christianity when people in the west, particularly Americans from Christian traditions or claiming to be from a "not evil religion", get too shrill with denouncing theocratic Islam overseas which, frankly, to me doesn't look any worse than what political Christians in the U.S. would LIKE to implement here if they could. I think Islam is a GREAT way for these kinds of political Christians to divert all attention to how bad Islam is while they try to get hateful restrictive stuff passed over here that would actually affect us-- don't worry though, the threat to your freedom is Islam.

The other big one, and this is probably most the most common scenario by far, is people use the "evils of Islam" as their castiron excuse for the same bigotry, xenophobia, jingoism and racism they apply to the lens of how they view literally every other social or political issue, except this time (to them), it's totally unassailable because "Islam is evil." Example: Being furious/disgusted with the mere presence of immigrants from any part of the Middle East or from virtually any Middle Eastern cultural background, and villifying it.

I get accused of defending Islam frequently, but I think more often the real battle going on is over veiled sense of racial, national or cultural superiority.... and not at all a dispute between "one person who thinks Islam is good and one person who thinks it's evil."

I think any religion can be, or at some point has already been, what Islam is today. I have a "to the negative side of neutral" view of all religion, but people who get really carried away with "No no, you don't get it, I read some quotes on a hate site and self-educated in Arabic, if you don't know Islam is way purer evil than any religion ever, you are just ignorant.." will always see my failure to agree with that as "partialism to Islam."

[East]