Here's Caitlyn

[East]

I assume you guys have already seen Caitlyn Jenner?



The most interesting thing for me was Annie Leibovitz whose photography I love...

As for this person..I don't like him...or her. It the Republican thing mostly...and how he has represented his views and flaunted his nasty family on us...but I knew his/her politics way before her recent disclosure.

The other thing...which may be controversial for some people...I am not really thrilled being identified with some of the letters after LGB ...never have been. I think of being Gay as a sexual identity...same with Lesbians and Bisexuals which I also see as a sexual identities. I don't really see gender identity as the same thing.

I have heard all of the reasons "why"...and I accept the reasons for what they are...but don't really agree with all of them...

I am a little biased I think from my personal experience with transgender individuals who are NOT very nice about gay people...and do not necessarily even support marriage equality...and from my experience...they are not really thrilled about being lumped with LGB people either since they will assert often they are straight women in a man's body...and don't necessarily like or have anything in common with gay men or lesbians...their words...not mine...

Which leads me to the question..does anyone know who came up with the idea to make it all one thing? I know Jesse Jackson came up with the term African American...and I know LOTS of black people...I mean..LOTS...and not one of them wants to be called African American or uses the term themselves....so I wonder who comes up with these terms?...and are we just supposed to accept letting someone else define us? ..as individuals?...or as a group?

For me...I feel like Caitlyn is part of my "community" as a Human Being...as a Californian...as an American...but after that...debatable..

[ShiftyNJ]

I assume you guys have already seen Caitlyn Jenner?



The most interesting thing for me was Annie Leibovitz whose photography I love...

As for this person..I don't like him...or her. It the Republican thing...but I knew I way before her recent disclosure.

The other thing...which may be controversial for some people...I am not really thrilled being identified with some of the letters after LGB ...never have been. I think of being Gay as a sexual identity...same with Lesbians and Bisexuals...

I have heard all of the reasons "why"...and I accept the reasons for what they are...but don't really agree with all of them...

I am a little biased I think from my personal experience with transgender individuals who are NOT very nice about gay people...and do not necessarily even support marriage equality...and from my experience...they are not really thrilled about being lumped with LGB people either since they will assert often they are straight women in a man's body...and don't necessarily like or have anything in common with gay men or lesbians.

Which leads me to the question..does anyone know who came up with the idea to make it all one thing? I know Jesse Jackson came up with the term African American...and I know LOTS of black people...I mean..LOTS...and not one of them wants to be called African American or uses the term themselves....so I wonder who comes up with these terms?...and are we just supposed to accept letting someone else define us? ..as individuals?...or as a group?

Oh, mister, you caught me on just the right drink.

I cannot WAIT for this story to die. CANNOT. WAIT.

Unfortunately when this person chose to be associated with what I refer collectively to as "the K-hole" I lost any possible interest I could have had in this story. To me there is nothing interesting or newsworthy about a wealthy, privileged person undergoing gender identity transition and making a public spectacle of it to boot. What is newsworthy is the number of transgender people, particularly of color, suffering from poverty and violence. Laverne Cox (Orange is the New Black) said this quite succinctly the other day.

Orientation is orientation and identity is identity, and each of them is a spectrum, our place on which may or may not shift over time. When I teach about this stuff, I show them as two intersecting lines, with the place that that they meet being different and sometimes fluid for each individual. Although I am oriented principally towards guys, I am growing to resent the term "gay" because it triggers so many assumptions on the part of other people, many of them also gay, about who I am and what I "should" care about. I have not and don't see myself ever being curious about living as a woman, and don't quite understand why many people seem to believe that same-gender attraction brings with it a tendency (or even an obligation) to adopt traits of the opposite gender in one's self.

The reason, as I understand it, that the two are lumped together is because the root cause is the same. Society has had very concrete idea about sexuality and gender roles since (at least) the Victorian era, and at its core is sexism. We have been raised with the idea that to be male is superior to being female. Thus men expect more power and privilege, and become defensive and even combative if women try to assert these things for themselves.

In that world, a man who chooses to present as female (or even exhibit stereotypically female traits like gentleness, demonstrative expressiveness, or highly-visible emotion) is seen as a deviant, because why would you want to give up privilege? And a woman who wants to present as male (or even exhibit male traits like toughness or authority) is frequently seen as either a threat or a joke.

So politically, it makes sense, because, really, who else is going to fight for you? But it has been an uneasy marriage in many quarters, and there are plenty in the trans community who don't see themselves as a part of it. But why, like Jenner, they choose to vote against their own rights is anathema to me.

[East]

The one reason that DOES resonate with me is society's views on gender roles and sexuality...and the political marriage of the two as a force makes sense...

...but I have met a lot of transsexuals over the years and not a lot of them are liberals..or democrats. Mostly conservative and VERY JUDGEMENTAL about gay men and their sexual habits....so my lip is curled a bit from that experience....

One good thing...maybe he can speak at the Republican Convention this year. They say they want to embrace diversity......

[ShiftyNJ]

The one reason that DOES resonate with me is society's views on gender roles and sexuality...and the political marriage of the two as a force makes sense...

...but I have met a lot of transsexuals over the years and not a lot of them are liberals..or democrats. Mostly conservative and VERY JUDGEMENTAL about gay men and their sexual habits....so my lip is curled a bit from that experience....

I strongly suspect that is a product of the same upbringing issues I mentioned above. That they don't see irony in that, I can't explain. I think it is the same reason why some butch lesbians are so disdainful of effeminate gay men. They have bought into the idea that toughness/stoicism is better.

[East]

I strongly suspect that is a product of the same upbringing issues I mentioned above. That they don't see irony in that, I can't explain. I think it is the same reason why some butch lesbians are so disdainful of effeminate gay men. They have bought into the idea that toughness/stoicism is better.

You know...I am thinking...the crossdressers I know...all of them straight...married to women but like to dress in women's clothes but still identify as a man...they are liberal and not at all judgemental about gay men...

...and I like them in general when I meet them...but still don't identify with them on a sexual identify level...

[ShiftyNJ]

You know...I am thinking...the crossdressers I know...all of them straight...married to women but like to dress in women's clothes but still identify as a man...they are liberal and not at all judgemental about gay men...

...and I like them in general when I meet them...but still don't identify with them on a sexual identify level...

I only know one bona fide cross dresser (as opposed to drag queen or transgender person), a fraternity brother of mine, and he fits into this category. He was completely cool about my coming out, but he doesn't put himself in the trans "community" at all, and AFAIK, has absolutely no thoughts about transitioning. It stands to reason, though: if you like fucking with society's ideas of how men (or, for that matter, women) "should" present themselves, then a dude who likes dudes and/or expresses himself with some stereotypically female mannerisms shouldn't phase you.

[East]

^^^I had another thought...at first I thought it was random..and then I started going through the mental files and it seems to be a pattern....

The TS I know...they have a lot in common with Nancy Reagan...and Barbara Bush....and Sarah Palin...and Michelle Bachmann.....and Ann Coulter (MAYBE ALOT MORE IN COMMON WITH HER) in both looks and attitude...

Surely there must be at least one TS Elizabeth Warren...or Gloria Steinem?...or maybe not?

...and the irony...they seem to embrace women who adhere to and advocate strict conventional female gender role models...and then become one of them...

[ShiftyNJ]

I guess my experience is slanted because virtually every trans person I know IRL is involved in social justice work, so by default they are progressives.

[East]

I guess my experience is slanted because virtually every trans person I know IRL is involved in social justice work, so by default they are progressives.

Yeah...my perception is definitely based on my experience...and also listening to too much talk radio where they would call in and assert their conservative views and denounce gay men.....

But even if I had the opposite experience and met progressives and had positive experiences...I think I would still question the group identity. I really would like to find out who decided to give us all a group identity?

[ShiftyNJ]

Yeah...my perception is definitely based on my experience...and also listening to too much talk radio where they would call in and assert their conservative views and denounce gay men.....

But even if I had the opposite experience and met progressives and had positive experiences...I think I would still question the group identity. I really would like to find out who decided to give us all a group identity?

Probably our opposition, or some idealistic activists who thought that our common interests would mean we'd play nicely together.