Here's Caitlyn

[Anocxu]

well, that would be a lot like the pot calling the kettle the "N-Word"
~Beaux

I've never been fond of that word...
It just defies everything intellectual...
"Nincompoop" <--- eww!

[Beaux]

I am glad to hear that Beaux...seriously....I even left out the years when I bartended and my experiences.....

I am not really sure now what Caitlyn is supposed to be called if he has no intention of transitioning to a woman. He is a straight man dressed as a woman? I still don't know what that had to do with gay/lesbian/bisexual men and women...and why a Conservative Republican gets to suddenly represent all of us ...grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

Well, simple courtesy tells us that we should address people by the names and pronouns by which they identify. Wether she does or does not get surgery to fix what she obviously views is a birth defect, if it is her intention to live life as a woman then I respect that choice, since it is her right to choose how she lives.

As far as representing all of us, I wasn't aware that she was representing anyone but herself--by publicly announcing herself to be a republican, she is pretty much screaming to the world that she is only looking out for #1 , wouldn't you say?

I will admit that I am somewhat confused by how Catlin Jenner identifies. Though I haven't watched or read any interviews, I have read several quotes from interviews that left me scratching my head. For example, she was quoted as saying, "Don't worry, I still like women. I am still heterosexual." (or something to that nature).

However, if she is transgendered and likes women (as a SURPRISING number of trans-women do), then she would be properly termed a Lesbian (which would partially answer your question, as it would make her a member of the LGB community). Conversely, had she simply said, "I am heterosexual", then the assumption would be that she likes men since she has come out as transsexual (meaning that she has always been a woman inside).

Amongst my transsexual friends, Catlin Jenner has become a most unwelcome source of publicity and embarrassment, due in no small part to what I mentioned in my last two paragraphs, and I have heard a number of them say, "He isn't transgendered, he is a crossdresser.", which did give me some pause. However, cross-dressing is a form of fetishism, and I don't (personally) see that as the case here. The desire to live life as a woman is observed in only one community-- the transsexual community, so, based on this I would have to say that she is indeed transsexual. In a case like this one, we can only base our conclusions on what we know, and all we know is what she has told us. She is the only person on earth who REALLY knows if she was "born the wrong gender".

What do I personally think? I think that, from an early age, Bruce Jenner lived a life overflowing with privilege--that which comes from fame, fortune, and hero-worship magnified and enabled by the media, which put him in a position that most trans-women will never know: a position of security. It is extreamly unlikely that Catlin Jenner will ever be killed in a drive-by shooting, be forced into sex-work because no one will hire her, or deal with any of the other million+ demoralizing situations that are a fact of life for the vast majority of transgendered women in the world today, and Bruce Jenner knew that. HOWEVER, Bruce Jenner also knew he would have to deal with the one thing that every person in the LGBT community has to deal with--Rejection (hey! maybe that's why they are included in the LGB & T!), and I don't think that rejection is something that Bruce Jenner was accustomed to, so he did what so many people do when they are afraid of socitial rejection-- they minimize their role and the perception of the behaviors that elicited the rejection. Bruce Jenner wanted to abandon his male gender identity but he didn't want to abandon all of his social and business ($$$) friends, so when he shed his male identity he had to make a "reassuring" public statement to those people. Basically, I believe Catlin Jenner is saying "I wish to be identified as a woman now, but don't worry! I am still the white, patriarchal, privileged, bigot I have always been!".

~Beaux

[East]

Well, simple courtesy tells us that we should address people by the names and pronouns by which they identify. Wether she does or does not get surgery to fix what she obviously views is a birth defect, if it is her intention to live life as a woman then I respect that choice, since it is her right to choose how she lives.

As far as representing all of us, I wasn't aware that she was representing anyone but herself--by publicly announcing herself to be a republican, she is pretty much screaming to the world that she is only looking out for #1 , wouldn't you say?

I will admit that I am somewhat confused by how Catlin Jenner identifies. Though I haven't watched or read any interviews, I have read several quotes from interviews that left me scratching my head. For example, she was quoted as saying, "Don't worry, I still like women. I am still heterosexual." (or something to that nature).

However, if she is transgendered and likes women (as a SURPRISING number of trans-women do), then she would be properly termed a Lesbian (which would partially answer your question, as it would make her a member of the LGB community). Conversely, had she simply said, "I am heterosexual", then the assumption would be that she likes men since she has come out as transsexual (meaning that she has always been a woman inside).

Amongst my transsexual friends, Catlin Jenner has become a most unwelcome source of publicity and embarrassment, due in no small part to what I mentioned in my last two paragraphs, and I have heard a number of them say, "He isn't transgendered, he is a crossdresser.", which did give me some pause. However, cross-dressing is a form of fetishism, and I don't (personally) see that as the case here. The desire to live life as a woman is observed in only one community-- the transsexual community, so, based on this I would have to say that she is indeed transsexual. In a case like this one, we can only base our conclusions on what we know, and all we know is what she has told us. She is the only person on earth who REALLY knows if she was "born the wrong gender".

What do I personally think? I think that, from an early age, Bruce Jenner lived a life overflowing with privilege--that which comes from fame, fortune, and hero-worship magnified and enabled by the media, which put him in a position that most trans-women will never know: a position of security. It is extreamly unlikely that Catlin Jenner will ever be killed in a drive-by shooting, be forced into sex-work because no one will hire her, or deal with any of the other million+ demoralizing situations that are a fact of life for the vast majority of transgendered women in the world today, and Bruce Jenner knew that. HOWEVER, Bruce Jenner also knew he would have to deal with the one thing that every person in the LGBT community has to deal with--Rejection (hey! maybe that's why they are included in the LGB & T!), and I don't think that rejection is something that Bruce Jenner was accustomed to, so he did what so many people do when they are afraid of socitial rejection-- they minimize their role and the perception of the behaviors that elicited the rejection. Bruce Jenner wanted to abandon his male gender identity but he didn't want to abandon all of his social and business ($$$) friends, so when he shed his male identity he had to make a "reassuring" public statement to those people. Basically, I believe Catlin Jenner is saying "I wish to be identified as a woman now, but don't worry! I am still the white, patriarchal, privileged, bigot I have always been!".

~Beaux

Hmmm...a lot of interesting points Beaux......

I do agree with the pronoun part of it...and I also agree that if a person says they were born in the wrong body...believe them...and I do....

However...I do believe that sexuality is far more complex than anyone knows....

..and so having said that...in my mind...if a trans person is gay/lesbian/bi..they are part of the LGB equation...but if they are completely heterosexual...I am just not "getting it"..

This next part may be controversial and not politically correct...but I have to say it anyway. I have mentioned here before that I was roommates with tranny hookers...chicks with dicks...when I was younger. Yes...they refer to themselves as "tranny" and "chicks with dicks"...and they never had any intention of getting rid of their dicks...and two of the three of my roommates had tits as well...and most of the other ones I knew did too. None of them wanted to get their penis removed. I pretty much knew all of them in and around town at the time...and yes...I loved them and had a great time hanging out with them and maintained my friendships for many years..most of them died long ago

Transvestites also referred to themselves as tranny and in many of these guys minds...they were half woman and half man....physically and emotionally and mentally. I also know men who feel like a woman sexually but have no desire to change any of their parts...men who feel like a woman emotionally but want to only fuck men with their penis while looking like a woman...hence the breasts...

They liked to fuck men with their penis and enjoyed "that part" of being a man.. but as a woman...and they had more clients than any straight hooker....and for these straight men...they got to spend time with a passable woman. Alot of guys think they are gay but I don't think so. They want BOTH in one person ...man and woman...and it has to be visual... If they were gay...they would visually want a man...even if they are in the closet...if they were bi...either/or...maybe both.....

Many entered relationships with otherwise straight men so I assume it was a bisexual relationship. I knew one couple who were both chicks with dicks that were a couple....they loved each other a lot....

I see this as a completely different thing than being a transsexual....and so did they.

Now....with some outspoken transsexuals since that time...I have heard them denounce these chicks with dicks girls as not "real transsexuals"...and using the term chicks with dicks was not PC...so what are we supposed to call them?

A lot of the ones I knew did not feel like they were born in the wrong body...I know because I heard them talking...I did live with and party with them...so I got to hear ALOT of conversations and a lot of them were my friends for years and so lots of these types of subjects and conversations came up...

...and now...there is Caitlyn who is essentially a chick with a dick...but not as cool as any of the ones I knew (sorry....but it's true)...and it seems as though she has no intention of having sex with a man with his penis...so she is saying she is asexual....

...and where does LGB end? If LGB is a sexual identity...maybe LGBS should be the case since straight is a sexual identity as well? (Hey..that was an accident...but not a bad idea...)

OK...now I am just rambling....

I am still not certain I accept gender identity as a sexual preference...and if the transsexual is straight...why would they not be included with the straight community?

[Beaux]

Hmmm...a lot of interesting points Beaux......

I do agree with the pronoun part of it...and I also agree that if a person says they were born in the wrong body...believe them...and I do....

However...I do believe that sexuality is far more complex than anyone knows....

..and so having said that...in my mind...if a trans person is gay/lesbian/bi..they are part of the LGB equation...but if they are completely heterosexual...I am just not "getting it"..

This next part may be controversial and not politically correct...but I have to say it anyway. I have mentioned here before that I was roommates with tranny hookers...chicks with dicks...when I was younger. Yes...they refer to themselves as "tranny" and "chicks with dicks"...and they never had any intention of getting rid of their dicks...and two of the three of my roommates had tits as well...and most of the other ones I knew did too. None of them wanted to get their penis removed. I pretty much knew all of them in and around town at the time...and yes...I loved them and had a great time hanging out with them and maintained my friendships for many years..most of them died long ago

Transvestites also referred to themselves as tranny and in many of these guys minds...they were half woman and half man....physically and emotionally and mentally. I also know men who feel like a woman sexually but have no desire to change any of their parts...men who feel like a woman emotionally but want to only fuck men with their penis while looking like a woman...hence the breasts...

They liked to fuck men with their penis and enjoyed "that part" of being a man.. but as a woman...and they had more clients than any straight hooker....and for these straight men...they got to spend time with a passable woman. Alot of guys think they are gay but I don't think so. They want BOTH in one person ...man and woman...and it has to be visual... If they were gay...they would visually want a man...even if they are in the closet...if they were bi...either/or...maybe both.....

Many entered relationships with otherwise straight men so I assume it was a bisexual relationship. I knew one couple who were both chicks with dicks that were a couple....they loved each other a lot....

I see this as a completely different thing than being a transsexual....and so did they.

Now....with some outspoken transsexuals since that time...I have heard them denounce these chicks with dicks girls as not "real transsexuals"...and using the term chicks with dicks was not PC...so what are we supposed to call them?

A lot of the ones I knew did not feel like they were born in the wrong body...I know because I heard them talking...I did live with and party with them...so I got to hear ALOT of conversations and a lot of them were my friends for years and so lots of these types of subjects and conversations came up...

...and now...there is Caitlyn who is essentially a chick with a dick...but not as cool as any of the ones I knew (sorry....but it's true)...and it seems as though she has no intention of having sex with a man with his penis...so she is saying she is asexual....

...and where does LGB end? If LGB is a sexual identity...maybe LGBS should be the case since straight is a sexual identity as well? (Hey..that was an accident...but not a bad idea...)

OK...now I am just rambling....

I am still not certain I accept gender identity as a sexual preference...and if the transsexual is straight...why would they not be included with the straight community?

You have written out a lot here that I wish I could address, but I am either unable due to ignorance, or it is something I have already tried to address but was apparently insufficient in my definition.

The closest things I can say to address any (and actually ALL) of your post's questions are these:
1) If a woman knows all of her life that she is a lesbian, yet makes the choice to marry a man and spend her entire life with him, is she really a lesbian?
2) If a person identifies as transgendered but fears (insert reason) so much that he or she never undergoes transition, and as a consequence decided to live their life as the gender assigned them at birth even though it results in a miserable life, are they still transgendered?
3) is our community so prosperous and grand, now that we can safely come out of the closet (for the most part), that we don't wish to include others who spend their lives living in the closet as well?

I am of the belief that we should be willing to tack on every letter in the alphabet to the end of LGBT, if that means we have inspired another group so much that they want to be part of what we helped create. I think that there is enough equality for all of us. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there really were a letter for EVERY SINGLE group of people, that we made room in our circle for every kind of person, so that in the end the entire human race united for one purpose--Equality For All?

~Beaux

[East]

I gave it some thought before responding...because I wasn't sure really if there was more to it...and the bottom line for me is that she is a Conservative Republican who has supported and will continue to support the same people who have done everything they could to write discrimination into law and stop all progress toward equality under the law....and it is bad enough when a gay man does this and I have to "accept" him as "part of my community" .....when I don't. I don't accept them at all.....

How many Jews are going to accept a Jew who supports Nazis?...or Black People accept a Black Person who supports David Dukes?

Bottom line..>I really detest gay LGBT Republicans for everything they have supported that hurt the rest of us....

I might give a fuck about her if she wasn't a Conservative Republican. Her politics indicate that she doesn't give a fuck about anyone else in the LGBT community...so listening to straight people coming up to let me know how happy they are for Caitlyn...because I am gay and they assume I am going to be happy too...really grates on my nerves.

I can't wait to make a point the next time some yucky gross straight fame whore...like Jenner's daughter...does something...so I can return the favor and tell them about it because...well..they are straight....and she is part of the "straight community".,...so of course they are going to care.

The good news though..I decided to define myself LOL....and if other people want to define ALL people who aren't straight as one unit...that is OK with me...as long as it is OK with them if I define myself...and I still want to know who decided we are all one community anyway...

I state over and over that my sexuality is a non issue and I have lived my life that way....so people like Jenner make my skin crawl already....she is the opposite of everything I would admire...

I still want equality under the law for them though..and everyone else..whether I accept them as individuals or not...but I don't have to like them.

Oh yeah...I put a Liberal Trans Person in Caitlyns place...and my problem with her shrinks to the size of a pea...and would be more along the lines of questioning the group identity....and I think that is a fair topic. I still don't like anyone defining me as a gay man except for me....so that part of the discussion will always be somewhere on the table for me....

As for the questions...it wasn't you Beaux...I went off on a tangent. I was thinking out loud...which is why more often than not I need to sit back and think about what I want to say. It is worse in person for me because unless I am really careful...whatever thought pops into my head pops out of my mouth :eek:

Addressing your statements/questions...and this is just my opinion....

1) If a woman knows all of her life that she is a lesbian, yet makes the choice to marry a man and spend her entire life with him, is she really a lesbian?

Yes...she is a lesbian in a straight relationship

2) If a person identifies as transgendered but fears (insert reason) so much that he or she never undergoes transition, and as a consequence decided to live their life as the gender assigned them at birth even though it results in a miserable life, are they still transgendered?

Yes...assuming they think they were born in the wrong body. Some other people...crossdressers...Drag Queens..Chicks with Dicks...don't think they are born in the wrong body. I think it is important to note that alot of men or women who express themselves one way or the other in terms of he opposite sex do not necessarily think they are in the wrong body.

3) is our community so prosperous and grand, now that we can safely come out of the closet (for the most part), that we don't wish to include others who spend their lives living in the closet as well?

It isn't about being grand...but when someone is a coward and has spent their life "in the closet" hiding......we can all be cowards about alot of different things and facing fears can be horrific..so I feel sympathy for them... as long as they didn't spend that time fucking us over and throwing us under the bus...like Caitlyn did.

One final note...I really would like to meet an actual transgender person who didn't remind me of Barbra Bush or Sarah Palin...I don't like women who oppress other women much either.....and when I said I appreciated you and Shifty sharing the examples with me....I meant it. By trangender....I meant full transition...and my mistake...it could also mean someone who is in the wrong body and hasn't fully transitioned. I would love to meet a few of them....I am just glad to know they exist.

[artyboy]

Who is Caitlyn Jenner? I really dont have a cle?

[larafan25]

I think the Kardashians are fucking great. I mean, everyone likes to go on about how they are famous for nothing, etc... Isn't that alright?

For many of us, fame is seen as value. I think we're all valuable, you don't have to invent the gadam telephone to be worthy of life. So if people want to follow the Kardashians, let em.

As for Caitlyn being part of the Kim Kardashian Klan, I think it's so gorgeous that she gets to be a regular celebrity on the cover of magazines looking flawless as fudge, She doesn't have to do anything extra for the community, though she will. And that's great.

And you know, she is a hero for herself and in her own right.

[LJay]

Who is Caitlyn Jenner? I really dont have a cle?

Caitlyn Jenner is the former Bruce Jenner Olympic decathalon gold medalist who has decided to change sexual identity. Much ado about nothing. Without connections to the Kardashian crowd, probably unnoticeable.

[Buzzer]

She doesn't have to do anything extra for the community, though she will. And that's great.

This would sum up my problem with what any LGBT who is a conservative Republican is "doing" (extra or not) for the community.

And you know, she is a hero for herself and in her own right.

In our own heads we're all the stars of our own movies. I don't think that's the issue. The issue is the cloying outburst of praise for Caitlyn as some kind of role model for our entire community, not just herself.

[East]

...and this is worth repeating...1000 times...