Do you believe in gods?

[RUoutthere]

I want to thank those who monitor what is shared in these posts. I see tonight that some responses I provided in previous days have now been added. I am not sure who refers back in this exchange of ideas or whether people even know that the posts delayed for review are inserted back in the order where they were submitted. Not really important whether anyone goes back and reads my previous posts on this subject that were being reviewed. There were some comments that were in direct response to others who submitted posts that seemed to be asking for an answer. Not sure mine was the best but it was an attempt. Best to all.

[MikeW]

Very nice deep thinking MikeW.

It still begs the question, who (or what) created this complex universe you described?

Your detailed accounting crosses virtually every form of science and yet all well accredited scientists believe for anything to happen, there must be a cause for it to happen. Who or what is the cause?

Short answer, God. Of course that is a name us tiny little human beings in the universe came up with. For those who believe in the one Creator, His response to Moses when asked was "I am". Meaning He is everything. Of course he had to use the language and the words of the time that us humans came up with so we would understand. So in some sense of your explanation, we are a part of God.

I'm skeptical of your theologically heuristic epistemology. The problem with cause > effect thinking (or put in the reverse, if B exists then A must be its cause, or, if not A, then some other designation that preceded it IN TIME) is that this assumes a temporal realm within which a linear progression of events can occur.

What I'm suggesting is that the cosmos is multi-dimensional and that outside of the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time (the 3-4D perception of reality we all seem to share) there can be higher dimensions... at the very least one more, a 5th dimension, that some have called "eternity".

Eternity need not mean an infinite duration of linear time. It could just as well mean infinite parallel realities or, perhaps better yet, a realm of infinite possibilities all happening "at once" (so to speak). In *that* realm everything "happens"; and there is neither cause nor effect; everything just IS.

Our experience of this "fifth dimension" is limited by our 3-4D perception that says ONLY SOME THINGS HAPPEN... and specifically only those things that we know of or have observed.

So, no, I don't agree that the cosmos must have a transcendent "cause" (much less a "creator God")... it could equally be its own cause and, as such, neutralize the theological dichotomy of immanence vs transcendence.

But, of course, when I say "cosmos" I'm thinking not of just the 3-4d universe of billions of galaxies (the furthest extent of which we've not even begun to glimpse). I'm thinking of a multi-dimensional (5D minimum) that can be said to BOTH exist and not exist; BOTH in time and not in time -- and that's because the fundamental reality is NON-material -- rather pure potential actualized by participation in it.

I believe physicist David Bohm was speaking of this possibility when he coned the phrase "The Implicate Order:"

In the enfolded [or implicate] order, space and time are no longer the dominant factors determining the relationships of dependence or independence of different elements. Rather, an entirely different sort of basic connection of elements is possible, from which our ordinary notions of space and time, along with those of separately existent material particles, are abstracted as forms derived from the deeper order. These ordinary notions in fact appear in what is called the "explicate" or "unfolded" order, which is a special and distinguished form contained within the general totality of all the implicate orders (Bohm 1980, p. xv).

And physicist, John Wheeler said it outright when he mused:

May the universe in some strange sense be 'brought into being' by the participation of those who participate? (J.A. Wheeler, K.S. Throned C. Misner, 1973.)

I've been preaching an existential gospel for decades now that insists: ONCE SOMETHING RISES TO THE LEVEL OF PERCEIVED EXPERIENCE, IT CAN NOT NOT EXIST. To us, as entities in a 3-4D time space, for sure, this referred to experience may be "in the past"; perhaps even forgotten. But in the context of a 5D Cosmos, it NEVER ceases to BE (any more than it ever was NOT to begin with).

This is why I say we don't understand WHERE WE ARE (much less who, what, and when). Where we are -- seriously, where we are every moment of our lives -- is on the bleeding edge of eternity.

We just don't SEE it that way (at least not often).

[MikeW]

I want to thank those who monitor what is shared in these posts. I see tonight that some responses I provided in previous days have now been added. I am not sure who refers back in this exchange of ideas or whether people even know that the posts delayed for review are inserted back in the order where they were submitted. Not really important whether anyone goes back and reads my previous posts on this subject that were being reviewed. There were some comments that were in direct response to others who submitted posts that seemed to be asking for an answer. Not sure mine was the best but it was an attempt. Best to all.

Frankly, I don't *know* but I SUSPECT there is no one behind The Great Mask of OZ! It's just a computer algorithm that randomly delays posts by those who have less than 50 as their post count. They may very well go into a cue that Andy (the site owner) can view, but I doubt he even bothers often to do so. ... But then WTFDIK.

[mrex]

people who are smarter than me have said that there are (atleast) ten dimensions to clarify universe. why is it so hard to understand it? because we live in a 3d world. we only recognize axises x, y and z and dimensions below 3d, a flat paper and a point.

how on earth could we understand 10 dimensions if we cannot even understand a step further from our tiny 3-dimensional world to 4d? probably easiest way is to think about projections. simplifying that each lower dimensions are projections from the dimension above.

think about a ball. It is a three dimensional object. when you place it between the paper and the light source, you get a shadow to the paper. that is the two dimensional projection from the three dimensional world. same goes for the three dimensional world. We are living in a shadow of the four dimensional world. etc..

"Please, draw me an example of this four dimensional world." how can i, because we live in the three dimensional world? but i can sure introduce the hypercube called tesseract: which is the cube in the four dimensional world like an ordinary cube in the three dimensional world.

there was a time when i had to think about "math" in different dimensions and getting headache daily. i wont hesitate to say that it is much easier to speak "god" and how our imagination mirrors and simplifies our world than e.g. talk about the linear algebra and how the math represents our world step by step.

[RUoutthere]

mrex and MikeW

First accept my compliments for all the research and reading you must have done to have such a deep and complex perception('s). And I do mean that seriously. The events and careers of my life have not allowed or caused me to pursue such abstract thinking. I have a career military background and experienced things in life that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Some of which have compelled me to believe there is a guiding force that plays a part in all things that happen. Not a forceful force. When people who I have interacted with in my 66 years sense this power in not just their mind but also find it is guiding their heart (metaphorically). While mankind did not have the vast resource of knowledge that we have today "in the beginning", he still managed to formulate ideas based on what he was experiencing in the 3D world and whatever was influencing his thinking. I find believing that that seed of knowledge was guided by the Creator God and therefore has just as good of a possibility as all the complex hypotheses you have researched and offered. While yours is immensely interesting and if it were a contest of sales effort to convince a group of people, I would definitely say you have a great advantage over me. But then again, those that were guided by some form of intelligence thousands of years before you and I said that there will be false prophets teaching against the Truth. For those who think attaching the title prophet to mrex and MikeW is a bit over the top, please understand that the concept and the word back then for the word prophet was a a messenger. I am sure mrex and MikeW are as normal and similar to all who read this. They have just decided to pursue a line of thinking that they have been drawn to.

I have enjoyed listening to the ideas of many people over the years and I myself was not always a believer in God. Experiences that most of the world does not have, thank God, have caused me to become a believer. What I came to realize a long time ago is that I could, because I have free will, chose to believe other possibilities. However, if I did and I was right, I would be no worse off. However, if I was wrong, my God, what a mistake that would have been. Since I truly believe, I have no concerns for which ever way it goes. I am good with God and if it turns out He does not exist, I will still have lived a good, kind, generous, and most important, loving life. That may be beneficial if it ends up they way you hypothesize.

I love you guys and enjoy your collective thinking. However, I am still going to pray for you.

[RUoutthere]

mrex and MikeW

I just offered some thoughts regarding your latest post but is is trapped in the "moderator" jail. I hope you watch for it. Until then, thanks for your continued sharing of ideas.

[JohnSomebody]

Remarkable John...
We almost lost you huh?

I have personal experiences that have led me to believe there are no coincidences in this life...
Most of us if not already will come to recognize it..
Thanks for sharing...
A reminder not to take things for granted.

BTW

I know our initial interaction was rough..this was my strategy...

A man who questions the simplest action on the basis of virtue is striving to be not just a good person, but an exceptional exceptional human being...

Apologies for rattling you up if I did...

In a state of constant enlightenment thanks to you guys... :-P

Thank you so much for your apology Anocxu...I really appreciate it and yes...after all that I've gone through in my life thus far...I do not take a lot for granted and many times because I'm aware that life is precious...I tend to shake off or tune out any negativity that comes my way and keep it moving forward. Have a Great Weekend...and thanks again...John

[Anocxu]

I appreciate your response and acceptance John...
Have a fun filled weekend ...

[mrex]

Some of which have compelled me to believe there is a guiding force that plays a part in all things that happen.

to me it is a science, the driving force in a nature. universe is expanding to entropy and all spontaneous chemical reactions happen because it is enertically favorable. it is all about atoms...

what comes to mankind, people do or dont do depending on the time and culture. when i read the bible (or any other similar kind of book) it is like to read a written history and rules on that time coloured by quite good stories. moreover it is just the hope.

people were living poor, they died young and were slaves. there wasnt any better on their lives so a religion was the escape tunnel from the misery - all good things happen in an afterlife. like in any society they needed rules to handle masses. like in any society stronger people were using weaker people. so bible (e.g.) wasnt just providing rules but it was also providing the hope. "if you... then you..." nothing more, nothing less.

I find believing that that seed of knowledge was guided by the Creator God

i think that stronger minds were ruling others and making guides to provide a civilized society.

those that were guided by some form of intelligence thousands of years before you and I said that there will be false prophets teaching against the Truth.

and it is a common for all religions. all they want it is to protect themselves... it is one of the basic human needs - to be secure. but protecting from what? evolving? not changing anything? not going further from own comfort zone?

I am good with God and if it turns out He does not exist, I will still have lived a good, kind, generous, and most important, loving life.

the thing is not to believe in god and live a good life, but the problem is asking others to do the same. unfortunately there are too many fanatics who are willing to do anything for their god(s). and not only fanatics but also ordinary families who say to their kids how they need to live their lives or they are banned not only from their society but also from their families. if only we could say believing is the way for a good life but like we know, the reality is differend.

[TigerLover]

I don't believe in a god because.

A.They generally require breaking or ignoring the known laws of physics.
B. Humanities natural belief in gods and afterlives can be well explained by evolutionary psychology.