Being Gay

[East]

Can you go in more detail about what a male/female energy is like? Like what you mean by those terms? What is an example, or a description, of a man with a good balance of the two? What would a man be like who did not have that balance?

A good balance...IMO....

BD Wong
Jon Bon Jovi
George Benson
Steven Tyler
Nick Ashford

The opposite

The Duck Dynasty guys
Donald Trump
Any guy who strictly adheres to traditional gender/role with the bias...


I will elaborate more later if the examples don't make sense...

[Emiliano]

The thing is, you are born the way you are, so how can any of us possibly know if our thinking is being controlled in any way by our sexuality, because it has always been a part of you.

Again, I know I'm asking some real abstract questions here, imagining ourselves as not ourselves and asking you to think about how you think. I don't think this is a nature vs nurture conversation. But you're right, maybe it is.

I can certainly think of examples in my own life where different experiences, or a new self awareness changed the way I thought about things - myself, the world, how I fit in to it. Maybe it's a personal trait of mine, but I like thinking about how I think and how other people think. Perspectives and motives interest me. If that's not an interest of yours and if you don't think experiences shape self, that self is in most ways stagnant from birth to death, then I'd agree, there is very little point of reference.

Haha, maybe I'm just not being very clear with what I'm asking also. I have a tendency to do that.

[Emiliano]

A good balance...IMO....

BD Wong
Jon Bon Jovi
George Benson
Steven Tyler
Nick Ashford

The opposite

The Duck Dynasty guys
Donald Trump
Any guy who strictly adheres to traditional gender/role with the bias...


I will elaborate more later if the examples don't make sense...

I think I understand.

In your experience do you think gay men are more able to explore both energies? Maybe directly because of being gay or that being gay in some way releases us from certain social expectations (or places different ones on us). Or do think it's something you see pretty evenly across gender and sexuality, based on your own experiences?

[East]

I think I understand.

In your experience do you think gay men are more able to explore both energies? Maybe directly because of being gay or that being gay in some way releases us from certain social expectations (or places different ones on us). Or do think it's something you see pretty evenly across gender and sexuality, based on your own experiences?

Good question...

I believe in the journey of the soul and I find that mature and older souls in general are alot more fluid.....and it crosses all sexual identify boundaries....

In some ways..gay men can be less likely to embrace this as they often have had to face alot of horrible family and life experiences that consume them and often it swings the other way where traditional sexual roles are challenged and paraded around...and that also serves a purpose and it is quite necessary....drag queens for instance...I love them..but they are rarely truly female in nature...more like 80% masculine and 20% feminine....

I worked with a DQ for years who would go off on her tangents and on the surface I "appear" masculine.....and I am...but I love my feminine side...and he announced he was more of a man than I am and more of a women than I would ever be.,....

...and so I grabbed his arm and asked the guys at the bar which of us was more female...and they said I was....in unison...and he looked bewildered until I told him that I NURTURED THEM...and he was basically a nasty bitch with bad makeup and a shitty wig..and I didn't need makeup and a dress or become a parody of a female in order to nurture them.

[Pix]

I think that MAYBE I'd be different if I were straight, but that it would come more from the media I was raised on that trained me how to think of myself and place in the world. I'll try to explain, but I realized a lot of this in retrospect so that's how I'm going to show it. (Btw, I'm female.)

While I was fine with guys, I never found the idea of being married to one appealing, and the romantic angles of Disney movies didn't hook me in as much as it did other kids. So as other girls played House and with dolls, and focused on the media aimed at them which featured being with guys (even as young as 5-6, we watched cartoons as Jem in which boyfriends were an important part, and of course Disney movies like The Little Mermaid played heavily into this theme), and the old fairy tale of patient, enduring love turning the Beast into a Prince in which she is forever rewarded continues in shows and books aimed at girls to varying degrees, where her primary purpose is to look good and get the guy.

But at age 6 I got shunned by the girls so I hung with the boys and the media aimed at them that I was hit with was a lot different for the most part. Furthermore, as marriage didn't interest me I focused on the more fantastic elements and checked out books about witches and wizards and the like that would eventually turn into an interest with scifi/fantasy where there's a much more progressive view of females (even Isaac Asimov could show this back in the 1950s). Speaking of which, these tended to be friendly to gay characters as well (though rare at the time). It didn't go out of its way to be like that, but that made it even more effective as it showed males and females as mostly interchangeable, and romance/marriage was as equally important (or unimportant) to both of them. A female's value was more in her heart and mind than her crotch, and she was a valued member of the team. And no one in the story saw this as strange or remarkable.

I think I was 12 when I read Z for Zachariah which was really intense for me, and it included the struggle of a teenage girl to resist a grown male where as far as they know they're the only survivors after a nuclear war. She'd been living just fine by herself with her dog and saves a scientist, and he repays her by dominating her and trying to force her to help him repopulate the earth which set off a power struggle. It's one of many that I think shaped my character. In contrast, other girls were reading The Babysitter Club, Sweet Valley High, or even books by VC Andrews.

It's also worth noting that as I was often raised by dysfunctional alcoholic parents (when not with my grandmother) I often read a lot more than I probably would've (to escape), and that not only gave me an improved vocabulary, but also a lot more time imagining myself as one of the independent women in the stories who had other things on my mind than getting a ring on my finger (the way my dad once put a ring on my mom's finger as they yelled and sometimes became violent with each other, hardly something to aspire to).

That continued, and I became someone who wondered who I wanted to be rather than who I wanted to marry, and one to figure out how to do things for myself. That, combined with the upbringing with boys (though I wasn't shunned by girls permanently, I never fully immersed back in girl world either) made me quite the tomboy. I didn't focus on cosmetics or fashion or marriage, nor defined my self-worth by having a guy to orbit (or to make orbit me).

At first I thought it was a quality of being gay, though I could see gay women who were very much like straight women in attitudes, and I also saw straight women (and also asexuals) who were also independent and a lot like me. These were the exceptions to the rule, but there were enough of them to make me wonder why. I finally noticed that the gay women who were "like straight women" (and love all that Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey crap, though they might try to subvert it into a "lesbian version") were often raised on the same media as straight girls, whereas the straight and asexual women were almost always raised on scifi/fantasy like me, or on academic works. So I do believe I'm different because of the media I was raised on, and had I been interested in guys then I likely would've chosen a different media, and become like many straight women...I might even find 50 Shades of Grey compelling rather than disgusting (not the sex or BDSM but the abuse and manipulation, and just how pathetic Ana is, just like Bella, that female readers are supposed to project herself into).

That said, it's a bit more complicated. For example, I think I was shunned by girls because the parents of those girls made it happen over my parents being dysfunctional alcoholics. Likewise, I spent a lot of time being raised by an independent grandmother who was never married in her life who I admired while not wanting to be like Mom and Dad. It's possible I could be like one of those "rare straight women" and thus be a lot like I am today, even if I were straight.

And I know it's not just the media (which I mean to include written works as much as anything else), but it's an important factor, especially when there's not much of a close extended family anymore and both parents often working--even if they avoid the media, the kids around them aren't, and many adults promote the same message anyway without even trying.

[Emiliano]

I think that MAYBE I'd be different if I were straight, but that it would come more from the media I was raised on that trained me how to think of myself and place in the world. I'll try to explain, but I realized a lot of this in retrospect so that's how I'm going to show it. (Btw, I'm female.)

While I was fine with guys, I never found the idea of being married to one appealing, and the romantic angles of Disney movies didn't hook me in as much as it did other kids. So as other girls played House and with dolls, and focused on the media aimed at them which featured being with guys (even as young as 5-6, we watched cartoons as Jem in which boyfriends were an important part, and of course Disney movies like The Little Mermaid played heavily into this theme), and the old fairy tale of patient, enduring love turning the Beast into a Prince in which she is forever rewarded continues in shows and books aimed at girls to varying degrees, where her primary purpose is to look good and get the guy.

But at age 6 I got shunned by the girls so I hung with the boys and the media aimed at them that I was hit with was a lot different for the most part. Furthermore, as marriage didn't interest me I focused on the more fantastic elements and checked out books about witches and wizards and the like that would eventually turn into an interest with scifi/fantasy where there's a much more progressive view of females (even Isaac Asimov could show this back in the 1950s). Speaking of which, these tended to be friendly to gay characters as well (though rare at the time). It didn't go out of its way to be like that, but that made it even more effective as it showed males and females as mostly interchangeable, and romance/marriage was as equally important (or unimportant) to both of them. A female's value was more in her heart and mind than her crotch, and she was a valued member of the team. And no one in the story saw this as strange or remarkable.

I think I was 12 when I read Z for Zachariah which was really intense for me, and it included the struggle of a teenage girl to resist a grown male where as far as they know they're the only survivors after a nuclear war. She'd been living just fine by herself with her dog and saves a scientist, and he repays her by dominating her and trying to force her to help him repopulate the earth which set off a power struggle. It's one of many that I think shaped my character. In contrast, other girls were reading The Babysitter Club, Sweet Valley High, or even books by VC Andrews.

It's also worth noting that as I was often raised by dysfunctional alcoholic parents (when not with my grandmother) I often read a lot more than I probably would've (to escape), and that not only gave me an improved vocabulary, but also a lot more time imagining myself as one of the independent women in the stories who had other things on my mind than getting a ring on my finger (the way my dad once put a ring on my mom's finger as they yelled and sometimes became violent with each other, hardly something to aspire to).

That continued, and I became someone who wondered who I wanted to be rather than who I wanted to marry, and one to figure out how to do things for myself. That, combined with the upbringing with boys (though I wasn't shunned by girls permanently, I never fully immersed back in girl world either) made me quite the tomboy. I didn't focus on cosmetics or fashion or marriage, nor defined my self-worth by having a guy to orbit (or to make orbit me).

At first I thought it was a quality of being gay, though I could see gay women who were very much like straight women in attitudes, and I also saw straight women (and also asexuals) who were also independent and a lot like me. These were the exceptions to the rule, but there were enough of them to make me wonder why. I finally noticed that the gay women who were "like straight women" (and love all that Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey crap, though they might try to subvert it into a "lesbian version") were often raised on the same media as straight girls, whereas the straight and asexual women were almost always raised on scifi/fantasy like me, or on academic works. So I do believe I'm different because of the media I was raised on, and had I been interested in guys then I likely would've chosen a different media, and become like many straight women...I might even find 50 Shades of Grey compelling rather than disgusting (not the sex or BDSM but the abuse and manipulation, and just how pathetic Ana is, just like Bella, that female readers are supposed to project herself into).

That said, it's a bit more complicated. For example, I think I was shunned by girls because the parents of those girls made it happen over my parents being dysfunctional alcoholics. Likewise, I spent a lot of time being raised by an independent grandmother who was never married in her life who I admired while not wanting to be like Mom and Dad. It's possible I could be like one of those "rare straight women" and thus be a lot like I am today, even if I were straight.

And I know it's not just the media (which I mean to include written works as much as anything else), but it's an important factor, especially when there's not much of a close extended family anymore and both parents often working--even if they avoid the media, the kids around them aren't, and many adults promote the same message anyway without even trying.

That was very interesting to read, thanks for taking the time to share all of it. What you said really makes sense. When I think about the books I read growing up and the things I watched and the role models I had for myself, those are major influences on how I am today and I relate with the world, or the kinds of behaviors and patterns in others and the broader society I'm sort of tuned into.

But of course the things that are targeted at boys are different from the things targeted at girls. So I can't directly relate with rejecting the things targeted at my gender. For me I was always drawn more to how race is displayed than gender. But I see what you are saying in how my sisters and female friends have takes about social pressures and expectations. My sisters are all girly girls who always had boyfriends, always felt that looking good was the most important thing. But I'm friends with a few butch girls who have talked about the other side of it.

What I find really fascinating is the last thing you said too, how adults promote the same message that we often see in terms of gender roles, without meaning to, or even realizing it. Combined with what [MENTION=18508]East[/MENTION] said, you both got me really thinking on some things right now - thank you for that.

[InbetweenDreams]

For you personally, is being gay something that is strictly an attraction to your own gender, or do you think it influences other aspects of who you are as well? Like if you suddenly met a straight version of yourself, how different or similar would you two be?

What does gay mean in terms of an identity? Your personal identity or a broader social/cultural one.

If you are bi or identify as something else, feel free to contribute as well.

I think being gay, aside from being attracted to men, has had impacts. Mostly that I feel that I can't share my thoughts and feelings with certain people and I think it is going to be a lot harder to have kids, if that ever becomes a possibility. Just the worry about being out, how that effects things in the workplace. Since we have a small family, I don't have to deal with a lot but... the rest of my family I'm not close to. Not sure why, but probably has a lot to do with my parents and their interactions...

I don't think a straight version myself would be profoundly different, possibly more outgoing. I guess I can say that since I spend most of my time single and doing my own thing anyway.

For me, being gay is more of a sexual orientation than a culture. I feel that "my type" of gay by other gay guys isn't well received. I'm not into a lot of the things that many gay guys are into... Like The Golden Girls, or Ru Paul's Drag Race... Same with music... I just don't share those interests. Doesn't make me "masc" or "fem," I'm just me and I don't see what the big fucking deal is of why every gay guy gasps when I tell them I haven't hard of whatever or don't like Queer As Folk as if liking all those things is a requirement to be gay.

At the end of the day, I just want to stop worrying about it. I want to stop wondering whether or not I will ever get married and do this thing called settling down. I know I have mentioned kids, which for a long time I was on the fence about, but if I could find myself in a stable relationship maybe that could happen, but seeing I struggle to find guys who know how to feed themselves or know how to fill out a job application being single probably isn't the worst thing for me right now.

Ok that turned more into a rant, but hopefully that covers it.

[knickerbuck]

It sounds like you might be taking this in the direction of why you think you are gay or have an attraction to men. Which is also fine. So if you had no male influences in your immediate family, what kind of male figures were you drawn to as a younger person? Like what did you look to as a role model in terms of people in your community or in pop culture? Just out of curiousity.


But I had intended this thread to ask what influence, if any, that being gay has has on your identity / personality? Does being gay bring anything additional to your personality? Or maybe does it remove something from your personality?

I was inspired to ask this by some of the responses in your thread about ex gays. Is sexual attraction all that being gay is? Or are we in some ways different from people who are not gay? In terms of how we perceive, interpret, and relate to the world that is.

i think that being gay is MY personality .. lol .. didnt intend this to sound humorous Emiliano .. but i guess i just cant shrug it off, my being gay that is, the environment has already molded me into the person that i am now. there are things that are out of your knowledge and control that influence and shape you as a person...

btw, your query .. i've always been attracted to working men ..

[meridannight]

For you personally, is being gay something that is strictly an attraction to your own gender, or do you think it influences other aspects of who you are as well? Like if you suddenly met a straight version of yourself, how different or similar would you two be?

What does gay mean in terms of an identity? Your personal identity or a broader social/cultural one.

I strongly identify as a man who is attracted to other men. It does go beyond just sex for me. It's an integral part of myself, without which I would not be me. A man who was in every respect like myself, but who felt attraction for women, would be light years apart from who I am.

But I think this has a lot to do with the connection I feel for men. What I feel for other men is the deepest and most beautiful feeling known to exist to me in the whole Universe. It is the strongest impulse in me, that pull toward men. It is the purest and most enlightened state of mind. It is the ideal state, physically, emotionally, and mentally.

And it is the strength of my feelings for men, that is the essence of who I am. Everything is centered on it, it's like it's the source of gravity, or the ground of my life. It goes beyond my sexuality, although that is obviously part of it. Rather, my sexuality is but one little aspect/part of this whole disposition of mine that I have toward men.

I love men. With every molecule of my being. And this qualifier does not do justice to what it feels like.

[TwisttheLeaf]

Being attracted to men influenced the way I am today in probably EVERY way that matters. Not because I'm attracted to men, but because of my father's abject disapproval of my preferences from the moment they were first suspected until the day he died... and beyond from the grave, even.

My personality. My moral compass. My social skills. My independence. My determination. All of this and much more. All of it would surely be different had my interest not leaned towards men.