52% of British Muslims in poll think homosexuality should be illegal

[Doc]

You do realize religion is a man's invention, and as such, everything it 'teaches' is man's invention?

The christian church performed same-sex marriages still around the 10th-11th centuries (so if you had been born as a strict catholic you claim to be in the 11th century the catholic church would have married you and your male partner in matrimony.

Anyone who is a blind or 'strict' follower of anything, be it a religion or something else, is unintelligent.

1.) The faithful would say its god's wisdom passed down to man

2.) I've never heard that, I have no idea where you are getting that, the true believer have always despised sodomites.

3). I never claimed to be a strict catholic and I never said I was born a catholic. As a child I was a part of the methodist church. I dont have a male partner right now, he is being a cock and fighting with me.

4.) They arent unintelligent they are faithful.

You all are such hypocrites, acceptance if they except you, freedom of speech as long as its your own. Sad

[meridannight]

2.) I've never heard that, I have no idea where you are getting that, the true believer have always despised sodomites.

Really? You have proof of that? That religious people and church officials throughout time have always despised homosexuals?

Serge and Bacchus

How could these marriages have been forgotten by history? One easy answer is that — as Boswell argues — the Church reframed the idea of marriage in the 13th century to be for the purposes of procreation. And this slammed the door on gay marriage.

Boswell

/.../ records of ceremonies consecrating a pairing of men, ceremonies often marked by similar prayers and, over time, by standardized symbolic gestures: the clasping of right hands, the binding of hands with a stole, kisses, receiving holy communion, a feast following the ceremony. /.../

wikipedia

A same-sex marriage between the two men Pedro Díaz and Muño Vandilaz in the Galician municipality of Rairiz de Veiga in Spain occurred on 16 April 1061. They were married by a priest at a small chapel. The historic documents about the church wedding were found at Monastery of San Salvador de Celanova.

Yeah, you never heard of any of that because you are blindly following a line in a book instead of doing your own thinking. Exactly what the religions cultivate in their followers.

4.) They arent unintelligent they are faithful.

If your faith makes you unquestionably follow abstract principles and discourages thinking with your own head, then, yes, it is the same as stupidity (i.e. being unintelligent).

You all are such hypocrites, acceptance if they except you, freedom of speech as long as its your own. Sad

Who said anything about you or other religious people not having the right to speak for yourselves? Don't throw such BS around, it's not gonna fly. You're the hypocrite here. Nobody attacked that right, which I happen to stand by.

I don't need to be accepted by religions of the world. But they need to stop spreading around their hateful and inhuman doctrines about homosexuality. And until they do, I'm not gonna shut up. Thousands of young men are unnecessarily confused and conflicted because of the bullshit the religion spreads around.

Religion pretends to be about humanity and love and togetherness. What horseshit. That's pure unadulterated hypocrisy right there for you. Your religion is a hateful, intolerant philosophy. No decent human being would want any part of it.

[Confuzzled4]

Excellent point [MENTION=1766]princealbertofb[/MENTION] there were laws were it was illegal up until the 1970s, sadly Alan Turing was one such victim of the laws in place (Imitation Game incredible movie). Unfortunately in all of the Western religions the texts consider homosexuality as a sin as we all know. With modernization, Christianity and Judaism appear to have greatly outpaced Islam in terms of changing views on homosexuality.

[Doc]

[MENTION=21405]meridannight[/MENTION]

Ever heard of Leviticus, read a book you dumb dago fuck.

[deephiance]

^^^^^^ the best reaction when proven wrong....EVER


/end Sarcasm.

[meridannight]

[MENTION=21405]meridannight[/MENTION]

Ever heard of Leviticus, read a book you dumb dago fuck.

I have read a lot of books, thank you very much. Most of them in English (I had to look up what dago means). Yes, I am an Italian-speaking fuck, but hardly dumb.

Interesting how you as a homosexual man (and someone who was/is catholic or religious), are reacting against the idea that your religion has been supportive of homosexuality (or love between men) in the history. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

Instead you’re here violently insisting that what the catholic church teaches right now has been the case always. As if christianity (or any other religion) was immutable or unchangeable and removed from the influences of the environment it finds itself in, whereas it is a well-known fact that religions change their attitutes and dogma not infrequently. Another indicator that religions just make it up as they go along, that their principles were not handed down from some spiritual overlord in an unchanged form for people to follow. Even in your ten commandments, the possibility of homosexual relations has been noted (thus showing a more lax attitude toward relations between men, by not deeming it worth it to include its prohibition among them).


In the Middle Ages, by the way, it has been argued that monks were not uncommonly homosexual men. That the very reason men went into such a 'practice' in the first place was because it provided an environment that cultivated male-to-male intimacy. Which it did (also -- lesbian relations between religious sisters in convents have been documented in history).


By Leviticus you mean:

Christians generally have the view that the New Covenant supersedes (i.e., replaces) the Old Testament's ritual laws, which includes many of the rules in Leviticus. Christians therefore have usually not observed Leviticus' rules regarding diet, purity, and agriculture. Christian teachings have differed, however, as to where to draw the line between ritual and moral regulations.

Religious people are just picking and choosing what they like. Most of that Book of Leviticus has been thrown away as a guide on how to live. The only reason that line referring to homosexual relations hasn’t been thrown away with the rest, is because church officials/the religious don’t want to throw it away. They want to oppress homosexual people. It’s as simple as that.

You don’t get to just pick what suits you without compromising the authenticity of that source. Either Leviticus is true, and you follow all of it; or you pick what you like which consequently means it is not true, and discredit the whole of it in the process. There is no save-face option to still claim Leviticus as an authoritative source on hatred of homosexuality.


Thus, of course I've heard of it. Never bought it as true, because I don't live in a world that dehumanizes relations between men to the point of punishing them with murder or prohibition or oppression. My experience tells me it is not true. And in the midst of such inconsistency of attitudes and a plethora of interpretations and alternative points of view, it is not difficult to dismiss that line as homophobic ramblings of some unenlightened hateful man (or men) who forgot his sense of humanity, if he ever had it. Not unlike you would dismiss a troll on the internet rambling away on the same subject.

[Doc]

Im not saying I believe or its right, but it is what it is. They believe it all true believers anyway, there's no changing it. There are many different sects of christianity, as well as regional variations of those that believe different things, its called diversity. They hate you as much as you hate them, don't you see that? You cannot suppress people because you don't like their opinion, even religious people. You don't like it? dont bitch to me, go to the pope and complain you two are neighbors. You cannot call people stupid just because they believe in god I used to be one of those people.

[princealbertofb]

Excellent point [MENTION=1766]princealbertofb[/MENTION] there were laws were it was illegal up until the 1970s, sadly Alan Turing was one such victim of the laws in place (Imitation Game incredible movie). Unfortunately in all of the Western religions the texts consider homosexuality as a sin as we all know. With modernization, Christianity and Judaism appear to have greatly outpaced Islam in terms of changing views on homosexuality.

[MENTION=23286]Confuzzled4[/MENTION] , you need to define IT. Homosexual activity such as sex in the rest rooms, sodomy etc were illegal until 1967 when homosexuality was decriminalised. Only recently (like this year) have some people been 'pardoned' by the authorities for being jailed etc at the time (those who were sent to prison actually think 'pardoned' is the wrong term, as it should be an 'apology') and then there was same sex partnerships, and then not very long ago (2013) same sex marriage which happened in Scotland slightly before Wales and England. It is still not legal in Northern Ireland... (Catholics, you see).
As for the Muslim communities, they are not always so well integrated, but as their children are born in the UK and go to school in the UK, watch, listen to and play with UK media (and international media, no doubt) mentalities are changing, and becoming gradually more tolerant.

[princealbertofb]

@meridannight is very well read, @Doc, but if this is how people read books, no wonder they are so confused. :biggrin: ( [MENTION=24118]deephiance[/MENTION])

I like to think that this is a civilised forum, no need for the insults. We can agree to disagree, and no, ... we aren't the same age, we haven't all read the same books, or seen the same sources, that doesn't mean we're idiots. I have not read one single Harry Potter (surprise surprise) nor seen any of the films. Does that make me an idiot? My students seem to think so (actually they don't, they're just surprised).

Inform us, provide the evidence, inform yourselves, read what other evidence is there to be read, don't necessarily dismiss everything that someone thinks just because your reading experiences are different from other people's, that's a little bit immature, imho.
The abuse is unnecessary and counter productive, what's more you can't dismiss it as a joke, because there's nothing to prove that you aren't seriously calling someone else a dumb fuck.

[meridannight]

Im not saying I believe or its right, but it is what it is. They believe it all true believers anyway, there's no changing it. There are many different sects of christianity, as well as regional variations of those that believe different things, its called diversity. They hate you as much as you hate them, don't you see that? You cannot suppress people because you don't like their opinion, even religious people. You don't like it? dont bitch to me, go to the pope and complain you two are neighbors. You cannot call people stupid just because they believe in god I used to be one of those people.

Right, I'm the one suppressing people, and not the church. The moment someone criticizes beliefs that are clearly neanderthal and backwards, they're oppressing the church and the believers. Give me a break.

I won't give in on this. I'm not saying people can't believe whatever they want to believe in the privacy of their own minds, and among their own kind. It is when those beliefs are carried into the outside world when they affect the lives of other men and their human rights, when religious people lobby in favor for discrimination of homosexual men out in the real world, when innocent kids are taught that men loving other men is wrong, that's when beliefs stop being beliefs and become something not unlike abuse.

Adults can believe whatever they want. As long as it stays a belief, I have no problem with it. When it crosses that line however, I won't settle for some lame excuse of ''freedom of speech'' or some other camouflage. I won't buy the bullshit that it's a religious right to discriminate against a group of men. It's wrong, plain and simple, and needs to be corrected. It needs to be clear that such nonsense won't fly in our society. Believe whatever you want, but keep it out of other people's bedrooms.

Funny you mention our pope. Do you follow what his stance on this is at all? Since you brought him into this so courageously. The pope is not nearly as homophobic as your average christian in America:

http://time.com/3975630/pope-francis-lgbt-issues/

Pope Francis suggested the church could be open to civil unions — March 5, 2014

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/26/world/...gize-gays/

Pope Francis said Sunday that Christians owe apologies to gays and others who have been offended or exploited by the church, remarks that some Catholics hailed as a breakthrough in the church's tone toward homosexuality.

"I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally,"

"I believe that the church not only should apologize to the person who is gay whom it has offended," he added, "but has to apologize to the poor, to exploited women, to children exploited for labor; it has to ask forgiveness for having blessed many weapons."

Maybe you religious people in the US should follow his example?


PS. I didn't mean to insinuate you were stupid. You're right that believing in god does not mean a person is stupid. I argued that people who unquestioningly accept the doctrines of some organization or a book without thinking things through and consulting other sources, they are stupid. It's a completely different thing. But no, believing in god -- as much as I disagree with it -- does not make a man unintelligent.