Hi there

[baristajedi]

Hi, baristajedi. How do you enjoy this forum so far? Sorry for the reaaaaaaaaaaally delayed reply as I was having some ups and downs. Shit happens.

I was taunted (not bullied for sure) by a few of my classmates back in middle school, where they made fun of me since I was not that masculine. I wouldn't hold grudge against any of them when I looked back, for we all are brainwashed by the idea that men should be blah blah blah.. We are all victims of this naturalized sexual and gender regime. Now I tend to believe that all men are of both sexes (maybe more than just two as i don't want to fall into binary opposition). This reminds me of a quote from The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter, saying that.



What do you think of this one?

Speaking of gay male celebrities, I can't really think of one right now. Let me think... hum... Tim Cook? LOL. I am just a big Apple fanboy.



I like you haircut. It looks fresh.

Hi again Alvin and thanks (about my haircut)

I really like this forum, everyone's really friendly and interesting. Im still lurking in some of the threads.

I'm also really delayed in responding, haven’t been on as much in the last couple of days.

Hope everything's ok!

You sound really grounded about the experiences you've had in school. I understand what it feels like to be taunted and not feel like you fit in. I never felt like I really fit in much in middle or high school.

I think gender is a fascinating topic. So much of it is culturally grounded, but there is something innate to our sense of our own gender as well, and where does that line fall? I have thought a lot about that question through my life because I questioned my gender for a long time. From the time I was about 3 I was telling my parents I thought I was supposed to be born a boy. I never dressed in dresses except the days you have to... Easter, school picture day. But I feel more in tune now with my gender being more on some kind of middle line… I like my female body, but I don't want to dress it up in feminine clothes, I prefer a cleaner cut to my hair, etc. And that dynamic of having kind of a genderfuck style feels really comfortable and right for me.

I love that quote! Ha. And the reverse is also true - we start out before puberty being pretty gender neutral, it's only when society throws rules onto us that we start looking like girls/boys before puberty.

Ah nice one, a brainy successful guy too, Tim Cook.

[Alvin]

Hi again Alvin and thanks (about my haircut)

I really like this forum, everyone's really friendly and interesting. Im still lurking in some of the threads.

I'm also really delayed in responding, haven’t been on as much in the last couple of days.

Hope everything's ok!

You sound really grounded about the experiences you've had in school. I understand what it feels like to be taunted and not feel like you fit in. I never felt like I really fit in much in middle or high school.

I think gender is a fascinating topic. So much of it is culturally grounded, but there is something innate to our sense of our own gender as well, and where does that line fall? I have thought a lot about that question through my life because I questioned my gender for a long time. From the time I was about 3 I was telling my parents I thought I was supposed to be born a boy. I never dressed in dresses except the days you have to... Easter, school picture day. But I feel more in tune now with my gender being more on some kind of middle line… I like my female body, but I don't want to dress it up in feminine clothes, I prefer a cleaner cut to my hair, etc. And that dynamic of having kind of a genderfuck style feels really comfortable and right for me.

I love that quote! Ha. And the reverse is also true - we start out before puberty being pretty gender neutral, it's only when society throws rules onto us that we start looking like girls/boys before puberty.

Ah nice one, a brainy successful guy too, Tim Cook.

You're right. Gender is indeed a very fascinating topic. Simon de Beauvoir famously said that one is not born, but rather becomes a woman. We becomes either a man or a woman through a process of socialization. So while sex is a natural thing, gender is a socially constructed thing. I think we're all forced, more or less, to act in particular stereotypically feminine/masculine ways, including dress (as you said), ways of speaking, being deferential, so that we can have this binary opposition for us (men) to achieve a sense of dominance over women-- therefore a second sex.

According to Judith Butler, gender isn't something we have, but rather something we do. It's a strange thing to say, but she essentially thinks that "I do woman through a series of performative acts of femininity." -- how I talk, dress, think, and relate to other people. I agree with her that we're not aware of the fact that we're performing our gender. In other words, we are not consciously, voluntarily playing our roles, but we find ourselves playing our roles compelled or coerced by society. Maybe we have some control (at least some limited control) over our own gender performativity, and therefore even subvert our gender construction by acting in a way that are unexpected.

That's when I think Drag queen/king is really working their way to reconstruct or at least make us realize the idea of gender subversion. I have to say that, though I know quite a few about gender studies, I am by no means a recovered man. I am still recovering from the internal institutionalization of gender. As a gay man, I think I've always enjoyed a extended privilege in a heterocentric patriarchal society. Lesbians, on the other hand, suffer from not only heterocentricism but also patriarchy. Double pressure I would say, which makes me admire you as a out lesbian even more. You have this clear sense and confidence of who you are. You are not ashamed of your own gender identity. That's something like, as Halberstam called, "female masculinity". I agree with her that "masculinity must not and cannot and should not reduce down to the male body and its effects." Women have every right to celebrate their own masculinity. Hum... that reminds me of Ellen again.

Speaking of your profile, Edinburgh. That brings my mind to University of Edinburgh, and then England, and then Virginia Woolf...she's also a feminist I think, and a master of streams of consciousness...I am also having a stream of consciousness...so much going on in my mind but I couldn't figure out anything. Life is so queer.

[Zen]

Hi! Sorry for disappearing for a bit, things have been a bit busy lately.










Hi Zen!

I understand your hesitance for your kids, given the views of the people who live around you. Kids themselves, as I'm sure you know are pretty open to accepting things, but the people near them can really give them a hard time.

That said, it sounds like for you, it's more of a question of *when* you will have a partner, not *if*, so perhaps it can start with introducing them early to accepting same sex relationships, and if you worry about their peers, you can also introduce some ideas about others viewing things differently and having trouble accepting different relationships. What are the ages of your kids? I think you've said, I'm sorry my memory on that is fuzzy!

With my daughter, I have done a little of both of those things, but in terms of peer pressure, it was more about dealing with pressure about gender, because she was getting bullied about gender issues (she's only 4! I couldn't believe that was already happening).

With my daughter - I talked to her about it by showing her my pride flag just as a start. I showed it to her and said, this is really important to mommy, because it means that it's ok for anyone to love anyone- women can love women, men can love men. I asked her did you know women can marry women/men can marry men? Etc. Once we were walking along and saw a family with two dads. I said, hey look sweetie, that little girl has 2 daddies. She was like - I want 2 daddies! Since then I've talked a lot with her about these things. She is so relaxed about it. And now she knows I have a girlfriend, we love eachother, etc.

In terms of dealing with peer pressure - with her it was about boys picking on her for liking "boy shows", "boy games", etc. I have had lots of conversations about how girls (and boys) can like whatever they want but not everyone agrees. We talked about how to respond to people pressuring her or bullying her, I praised her for standing up for herself and reminded her how much I support her. This can be a good thing for kids to learn no matter how likely it is for them to be bullied.


About crushes, hmmm I love strong women. I find women with boldness and passion really sexy. I also like quirky and brainy women too. I like Gina Torres, Gina Rodriguez… feisty and beautiful. I do have a thing for Alyson Hanigan But I love all the women from Buffy, Buffy herself, Tara and Anya. They each have their own type of beauty but also such well-rounded characters with a lot of depth and strength…

Good call on Spike and Giles. I love them! If I were into guys, I'd go for them too!

Hey!

Yeah kids are cool, like you say it's narrow minded parents that steer them towards hatred- nobody is born racist or homophobic, that has to be learned.

Yeah it's on my mind about maybe both if or when? Things at home are emotionally raw still so it would be a while away for sure. I still feel so guilty for coming out! My boys are 5 and 4. Sorry to hear about your daughter, that's really not good, hope she's ok. Sounds like you're handling it well.

That's a really nice way to do it. My wife has talked about it with the boys as there is a kid locally with two mummies, and it's cool! In the same way that we've taught them that there are lots of ways people are different- we just want them to be comfortable with themselves and others.

Think that's what I like all around- sense of boldness, but also quirky and brainy! Faith was quite a sexy and kick-ass gal! :-) but....Angel!! Mmm! Maybe he's too obvious a crush though! Haha!

[Zen]

You're right. Gender is indeed a very fascinating topic. Simon de Beauvoir famously said that one is not born, but rather becomes a woman. We becomes either a man or a woman through a process of socialization. So while sex is a natural thing, gender is a socially constructed thing. I think we're all forced, more or less, to act in particular stereotypically feminine/masculine ways, including dress (as you said), ways of speaking, being deferential, so that we can have this binary opposition for us (men) to achieve a sense of dominance over women-- therefore a second sex.

According to Judith Butler, gender isn't something we have, but rather something we do. It's a strange thing to say, but she essentially thinks that "I do woman through a series of performative acts of femininity." -- how I talk, dress, think, and relate to other people. I agree with her that we're not aware of the fact that we're performing our gender. In other words, we are not consciously, voluntarily playing our roles, but we find ourselves playing our roles compelled or coerced by society. Maybe we have some control (at least some limited control) over our own gender performativity, and therefore even subvert our gender construction by acting in a way that are unexpected.

That's when I think Drag queen/king is really working their way to reconstruct or at least make us realize the idea of gender subversion. I have to say that, though I know quite a few about gender studies, I am by no means a recovered man. I am still recovering from the internal institutionalization of gender. As a gay man, I think I've always enjoyed a extended privilege in a heterocentric patriarchal society. Lesbians, on the other hand, suffer from not only heterocentricism but also patriarchy. Double pressure I would say, which makes me admire you as a out lesbian even more. You have this clear sense and confidence of who you are. You are not ashamed of your own gender identity. That's something like, as Halberstam called, "female masculinity". I agree with her that "masculinity must not and cannot and should not reduce down to the male body and its effects." Women have every right to celebrate their own masculinity. Hum... that reminds me of Ellen again.

Speaking of your profile, Edinburgh. That brings my mind to University of Edinburgh, and then England, and then Virginia Woolf...she's also a feminist I think, and a master of streams of consciousness...I am also having a stream of consciousness...so much going on in my mind but I couldn't figure out anything. Life is so queer.

Alvin! My fellow academic! I love Judith Butler. I remember seeing and interview with her a little while back, and when she talked about gender as something you do, a light bulb went on in my head and I felt like I had been cheated somehow. Think I have always had a battle between being physically quite big but spiritually sensitive and soft. Some astute observers have pointed it out to me! I think that now I'm not 'playing the straight man' I've become so much more accepting of all aspects of myself- I feel more relaxed and self accepting!

[LJay]

Since the topic has arisien, @barisajedi and [MENTION=24253]Zen[/MENTION], here is an essay that should give you somethng to ponder this weekend: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170315...osexuality

It is a bit boggling here and there, but worth the read.

[Zen]

Since the topic has arisien, @barisajedi and [MENTION=24253]Zen[/MENTION], here is an essay that should give you somethng to ponder this weekend: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170315...osexuality

It is a bit boggling here and there, but worth the read.

Hey Ljay, thanks for this post mate, Had a quick look- very interesting, will read thoroughly later!

Do you know of the French post-structuralist/ post-modern (whatever these labels even mean!Haha) Philosopher? He wrote about what he terms "medical moral policing" and how from,largely, the 19th century sexuality became policed- for example criminalization and psychiatric treatment for "homosexuality" and the medicalisation of the feminine- the rise in women's health and reproduction as increasingly medical conditions. Very interesting guy was Foucault!

[LJay]

Here you go again, [MENTION=24253]Zen[/MENTION]! The only Foucault of immediate recall for me was Leon of the pendulum. Then I looked him up ad found a novel by Umberto Eco, which I must now delve, I'm an Eco fan. As for Michael Foucault, he looks to be quite a guy. Since I have no French, I will have to see what I can find of him in English.

[Alvin]

Alvin! My fellow academic! I love Judith Butler. I remember seeing and interview with her a little while back, and when she talked about gender as something you do, a light bulb went on in my head and I felt like I had been cheated somehow. Think I have always had a battle between being physically quite big but spiritually sensitive and soft. Some astute observers have pointed it out to me! I think that now I'm not 'playing the straight man' I've become so much more accepting of all aspects of myself- I feel more relaxed and self accepting!

Good for you. I hope you catch every nuance of the gender spectrum. Happy exploring.

[baristajedi]

[MENTION=24431]Alvin[/MENTION] and [MENTION=24253]Zen[/MENTION]

I've been thinking about this question of gender, and the idea that it's not something we are but something we do.

I agree with that to a large degree, but I would add that it's so much more nuanced than that. There is something hormonally and biologically grounded in our sense of gender, this must be true, otherwise what is it that tells some people they are absolutely born in the wrong body? I also think about my own experiences as a woman, compared to that of transmen, in terms of being born in s female body and connecting (or in the case of transmen, not connecting) to the expected biological urges women have. I needed at some point in my life, to get pregnant. It's so hard to explain that feeling, but it's powerful and real. Breastfeeding and my response to my child's cry, those are things that felt primal and instinctual to me as a woman/mother. On the contrary, some people are born into a female body but their experiences are very different. The way I've understood it is that our brains have some bits which do give us a very instinctive understanding of what our gender is, and sometimes it matches our biological sex, sometimes it doesn't. And because gender and sex are so often coupled together, something feels off.

Gender expression is fabricated by our culture to express these things that feel somehow natural to us. And it can be really really arbitrary fur sure, but I do think there is some hormonal and biologicalal grounding at the core of some of it.

I'm trying to think of what my main point is...I'm just thinking about this topic and trying to figure out where the line is drawn in terms of what is biologically grounded and what is fabricated by culture.

[baristajedi]

Hey!

Yeah kids are cool, like you say it's narrow minded parents that steer them towards hatred- nobody is born racist or homophobic, that has to be learned.

Yeah it's on my mind about maybe both if or when? Things at home are emotionally raw still so it would be a while away for sure. I still feel so guilty for coming out! My boys are 5 and 4. Sorry to hear about your daughter, that's really not good, hope she's ok. Sounds like you're handling it well.

That's a really nice way to do it. My wife has talked about it with the boys as there is a kid locally with two mummies, and it's cool! In the same way that we've taught them that there are lots of ways people are different- we just want them to be comfortable with themselves and others.

Think that's what I like all around- sense of boldness, but also quirky and brainy! Faith was quite a sexy and kick-ass gal! :-) but....Angel!! Mmm! Maybe he's too obvious a crush though! Haha!

Faith, ah how could I forget Faith? Yeah she was hot. And I was going to ask you about Angel, he's pretty dreamy, I can see why you'd crush on him.

Did you also like firefly? I love that show, and I love Zoe, tough and sexy. Wonder which guy you like from that show...?