Immigration and Terrorism

[Emiliano]

I'm curious about some of your thoughts and experiences on the topic of immigration and terrorism.

It seems to me that a lot of leaders in the western world have growing concerns about immigration, whether its Trump and his wall or the travel ban and campaign talk of banning all Muslims from entering the US, until we "know what the hell is going on", or what's going on in Europe - which I have much less experience with/understanding of.

But many of the recent attacks and unrest in both Europe and the US are not being committed by immigrants, but rather by the children of immigrants who were already living in the country they attacked.

As a child of immigrants myself, I find this interesting and makes me wonder more about what's going on, and what role identity plays in a persons vulnerability to becoming an extremist. And of course, it also makes me wonder what the next step is - if we can identify this pattern, what can we do to address it and change it?

What I'm asking of you guys here:

Are you an immigrant or a child of immigrants?

If not - What is your relationship like with immigration or immigrant communities in your area? Are you close with any immigrants or children of immigrants? How do you view the immigrant communities in your area? How do you perceive their ability, or willingness, to integrate or assimilate to the broader culture and customs of your country? Do you view immigrants as a threat to your culture? Overall are immigrants a positive or negative force in your area? What makes a "good" immigrant vs a "bad" immigrant?

If yes - How do you view the immigrant community you are a part of? Do you feel you are integrated or assimilated? How much of the culture of your country(ries) of origin do you hold on to? Do you feel immigrants have any responsibility to adapt to their new countries in terms of leaving their past cultures behind? Do you struggle with your identity, feel pulled by different worlds? What is a misconception you feel natives of the country you live in might have about about immigrants in general, or specifically about your ethnic/religious/racial identity, or about your country of origin? Overall are immigrants a positive or negative force in your area?

Feel free to answer or not answer any or all of those questions, or to add your own.

Or to just post pictures of sexy men. Just don't leave me hanging.

[InbetweenDreams]

Personally, I am not an immigrant. However, I am of Irish descent also have a small bit of Cherokee, Scottish...probably German at some point. Anyway, my family isn't native to the US originally.

Personally, I think a "ban" on immigration, or immigration from people from specific countries doesn't have much of an effect. If a terrorists wanted to come here, they would likely find a way...whether they're successful or not is another story, likewise hopefully not successful.

Terrorism...Honestly, I think you can indoctrinate any group of people. Just like people who think vaccines cause autism and that the government is ran by shape shifting reptiles, you can get them to kill people and themselves in the name of God. Frankly, many people have been killed in the name of God, or a deity of some sort.

I tend to have a hard time wrapping my head around dumb people who associate themselves solely to a particular political party... *republicans cough*

Then again when you watch a televangelist you get a pretty clear picture of the type of people you're dealing with, let's just say they're probably not going to be helping you with your math homework...and let's hope evolution never comes up either.


When it comes to immigration, I think there needs to be a better process in place so that people who want to move to the US can go about it easier. Frankly, building a wall isn't going to be of much use. Not sure where the US ranks in how difficult it is to move to compared to other countries but does seem like it might be a big hassle. I do think people who comes to any country should do so legally.

I think the same things that make an immigrant good or bad are pretty much the same as whether a citizen is good or bad. Do they break laws? Do drugs? Have a job and contribute?

I think one trait people have are those who are impressionable or just lack direction, likewise people who have mental problems, depression...or just insane. In other words if you're the kind of person who can be told this is how the world works and believe it because I told you then yeah I'd say that person is more vulnerable to be "radicalized" or listening to dumbasses like Alex Jones.

[Confuzzled4]

Lol, I love that last part. I'm liberal on many issues, this being one of them. A good immigrant is one who works hard to get ahead and doesn't break the laws (felonies). I don't have much of a relationship with any immigrant, and there's no way to say it without saying racist but there are some who cut the grass in the development I live in. As far as assimilation goes, I would like for them to learn English. I think it's the most important thing being able to communicate, otherwise I don't mind if they don't assimilate at all. Frankly I've always thought fear of immigrants was irrational and selfish. It's something that every wave of immigrants have experienced coming to America. For those who disagree, I think the best way to cut back on immigration is for people to have opportunities where they live, so why not promote good relations to improve conditions abroad? Anyway, my two cents. Less fear.

[InbetweenDreams]

Lol, I love that last part. I'm liberal on many issues, this being one of them. A good immigrant is one who works hard to get ahead and doesn't break the laws (felonies). I don't have much of a relationship with any immigrant, and there's no way to say it without saying racist but there are some who cut the grass in the development I live in. As far as assimilation goes, I would like for them to learn English. I think it's the most important thing being able to communicate, otherwise I don't mind if they don't assimilate at all. Frankly I've always thought fear of immigrants was irrational and selfish. It's something that every wave of immigrants have experienced coming to America. For those who disagree, I think the best way to cut back on immigration is for people to have opportunities where they live, so why not promote good relations to improve conditions abroad? Anyway, my two cents. Less fear.

I think most people would default to something similar that a good immigrant is one who works hard and doesn't commit crimes.... I would hold the same standard to citizens as well. People are people so who's to say that an immigrant should be held to different standards? Not suggesting you do or anything of the sort, just me thinking out loud. It seemed a lot of the older conservative types want to hold immigrants to different standards but not citizens while they suck on the chapped nipples of social security and medicare.

I would venture to say that most immigrants, whether they came here legally or not, probably wasn't thinking about food stamps or welfare. Of course I'm playing devil's advocate, I have heard plenty of people say that "Mexicans" are taking jobs that we would otherwise have or that they just work for less and all that jazz. I put Mexican in quotations because these idiots just assume someone with brown skin is Mexican which is beyond stupid. Sometimes I just want to ask these people if they made it past the 6th grade. It's the arrogance along with ignorance that fuels the problem. Frankly, the reason why someone gets a job over someone else, in any case is either they're more qualified, willing to do the work and if that person happens to be latino or an immigrant so be it, just means they want it more than the "natural citizen"

Natural citizen is arguable as well since we ultimately stole the land from Native Americans among other atrocities.

I think we should look at people as people and strip away the labels. If you enter a country, do it legally and don't be a social liability.

[Darius]

I don't have much time to post here now, but I would say, speaking as an American, whether you were born here or came here from somewhere else, refusing to form relationships with each other will only prove to be a loss to you. Those things which make us different shouldn't divide us, but should bring us together as human beings, learning to enjoy those differences and in so doing we learn how much we have in common.
Three of my grandparents came from Norway, so the Scandinavian influence in our home was important to us. But my siblings and I were very blessed to have parents and grandparents who loved having friends from all over the world.
Just recently, someone questioned if I had gone out of my way to find a Scandinavian bf. I am Norwegian but American born, my bf is from Sweden. Not sure what he was implying, but I don't think it was nice.

[Confuzzled4]

[MENTION=23180]InbetweenDreams[/MENTION] Oh I agree, somehow there are two standards for immigrants and citizens. There are deportations now over basic traffic infractions, not even infractions but traffic stops. I would disagree with your statement on getting jobs, but that gets into a different topic involving nepotism, networking, and other factors.

[Emiliano]

As far as assimilation goes, I would like for them to learn English. I think it's the most important thing being able to communicate, otherwise I don't mind if they don't assimilate at all.

I think this is also super important, not in an "this is america, speak English" kind of way, but because being linguistically isolated.... isolates you. But not all immigrants who never learn English are isolated.

I wanted to ask about this stuff to get different opinions and perspectives, because my own is so limited to NYC, which I think is a fairly unique example - maybe it's just my bias, but I feel that's true even across other major cities. So I am really curious about the experiences of people coming from rural or suburban America, other cities, and especially of Europe, because I wonder if immigrants have a more difficult time adjusting to life over there than they do here, where immigration is such a common thread in most of our history.

You're familiar with the city, so you've probably noticed that although this is an incredibly diverse city, it's also an extremely segregated city. We have many distinct ethnic enclaves that reflect the immigrant groups and their history here. And just like of the immigrant experience 100 years ago in NYC, certain immigrants today have the ability to start life in America in communities that act as a country within a country. I have friends who live in Flushing who would never have to speak English in their day to day lives at all. I'm also fascinated by the Hasidic communities in Brooklyn, where again, there really is no practical need for them to speak English.

Maybe not fully related, but on the topic of learning a language - I've also found in my experience a big double standard on how bilingualism is treated in different groups. In school the Latino kids were always told to speak English, they'd get in trouble for speaking in Spanish. It's not like teachers wanted them to practice English - they spoke both languages perfectly. But when a white kid knew Spanish or studied and did well in Spanish class it was a big deal about how smart they were or how much of a benefit to their career being multilingual was. Kids with an Indian accent were made fun of, but kids with a French accent were told how beautiful their accents are... I guess seeing things like that was one of the first times I started questioning what a good immigrant vs a bad immigrant was. Not in terms of crimes or things like that, but in terms of what type of immigrant is seen as desirable by a new country.








But with this thread I also hoped to start a discussion on the children of immigrants. They typically speak English, but maybe speak a different language at home. I think I'm some ways the identity of an immigrant is a more solid one than that of a child of immigrants. They are more assimilated, but in a sense might lead double lives. So I'm curious if anyone with experience in that area might want to jump in too.


Also to throw out another question - what does it mean to be assimilated? And in school we used to discuss the melting pot vs the salad bowl - does anyone want to share opinions or ideas on the differences between those, and which they view as the more beneficial goal?

I'd also be interested if there is a difference in opinions between the different continents we have represented on this site, if you believe an immigrant can truely even be assimilated in your country?

[Emiliano]

I think most people would default to something similar that a good immigrant is one who works hard and doesn't commit crimes.... I would hold the same standard to citizens as well. People are people so who's to say that an immigrant should be held to different standards? Not suggesting you do or anything of the sort, just me thinking out loud. It seemed a lot of the older conservative types want to hold immigrants to different standards but not citizens while they suck on the chapped nipples of social security and medicare.

I would venture to say that most immigrants, whether they came here legally or not, probably wasn't thinking about food stamps or welfare. Of course I'm playing devil's advocate, I have heard plenty of people say that "Mexicans" are taking jobs that we would otherwise have or that they just work for less and all that jazz. I put Mexican in quotations because these idiots just assume someone with brown skin is Mexican which is beyond stupid. Sometimes I just want to ask these people if they made it past the 6th grade. It's the arrogance along with ignorance that fuels the problem. Frankly, the reason why someone gets a job over someone else, in any case is either they're more qualified, willing to do the work and if that person happens to be latino or an immigrant so be it, just means they want it more than the "natural citizen"

Natural citizen is arguable as well since we ultimately stole the land from Native Americans among other atrocities.

I think we should look at people as people and strip away the labels. If you enter a country, do it legally and don't be a social liability.

I think you bring up some good points about holding immigrant groups to different standards than native born groups. But in a devils advocate sense - is there any justification for that sentiment? Do native born Americans or people who can trace their history back to the revolutionary war or something like that have any right to feel more entitled to what this country has to offer?

And the ultimate irony of all of the hate directed at Mexicans and Mexican Americans and the whole wall thing, is of course that it isn't just the Native American peoples whose land was stolen by America.

I also don't agree with the idea that America is a meritocracy- I think that's one of the big myths of this country. That's not to say that I think the "American Dream" is a lie, but I do think it's far more complicated than just work hard and you can do anything here. Plenty of people bust ass and barely live above the poverty line, if they do at all. And lots of people get a free ride because of inherited wealth. I forget the number, and I'm too lazy to go looking for a source right now, but I remember learning that most wealth in the USA is inherited- not earned through hard work and climbing up the ladder.

[Emiliano]

I don't have much time to post here now, but I would say, speaking as an American, whether you were born here or came here from somewhere else, refusing to form relationships with each other will only prove to be a loss to you. Those things which make us different shouldn't divide us, but should bring us together as human beings, learning to enjoy those differences and in so doing we learn how much we have in common.
Three of my grandparents came from Norway, so the Scandinavian influence in our home was important to us. But my siblings and I were very blessed to have parents and grandparents who loved having friends from all over the world.
Just recently, someone questioned if I had gone out of my way to find a Scandinavian bf. I am Norwegian but American born, my bf is from Sweden. Not sure what he was implying, but I don't think it was nice.

I agree that differences are things to be celebrated. I think that's a strength and a perspective I'd love to see more people actually believe in.

How did growing up with a Scandinavian influence in your home shape how you saw yourself as an American? Do the two ever feel at odds for you? Did you ever have negative feelings about it, or was it all positive? Were the cultures / traditions balanced in your home? Did you consciously go out of your way to get a Scandinavian boyfriend?

[InbetweenDreams]

I think you bring up some good points about holding immigrant groups to different standards than native born groups. But in a devils advocate sense - is there any justification for that sentiment? Do native born Americans or people who can trace their history back to the revolutionary war or something like that have any right to feel more entitled to what this country has to offer?

And the ultimate irony of all of the hate directed at Mexicans and Mexican Americans and the whole wall thing, is of course that it isn't just the Native American peoples whose land was stolen by America.

I also don't agree with the idea that America is a meritocracy- I think that's one of the big myths of this country. That's not to say that I think the "American Dream" is a lie, but I do think it's far more complicated than just work hard and you can do anything here. Plenty of people bust ass and barely live above the poverty line, if they do at all. And lots of people get a free ride because of inherited wealth. I forget the number, and I'm too lazy to go looking for a source right now, but I remember learning that most wealth in the USA is inherited- not earned through hard work and climbing up the ladder.

If you're defining Native Americans as Americans who came from Britain and fought in the Revolutionary War and not Native Americans... I just have a problem with people feeling they are entitled to something because their great great great great great grandfather did something in 1775. I mean sure it is cool that someone might be related to Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. I feel it is the same thing when people feel they're entitled to money over the Civil War or that someone long deceased was a slave or oppressed. I think the entitlement is a band-aid fix for what was a larger problem and isn't going to make things right. Just like money doesn't buy happiness, it doesn't fix emotional scarring or the past.

That's all I will say for the moment...