InbetweenDreams Wrote:If you're defining Native Americans as Americans who came from Britain and fought in the Revolutionary War and not Native Americans... I just have a problem with people feeling they are entitled to something because their great great great great great grandfather did something in 1775. I mean sure it is cool that someone might be related to Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. I feel it is the same thing when people feel they're entitled to money over the Civil War or that someone long deceased was a slave or oppressed. I think the entitlement is a band-aid fix for what was a larger problem and isn't going to make things right. Just like money doesn't buy happiness, it doesn't fix emotional scarring or the past.
That's all I will say for the moment...
When I say Native Americans I mean the indigenous, can trace their history to pre European colonization, people of the Americas. When I say native born Americans I mean people who are born in this country, regardless of race or ethnicity - people who aren't immigrants or children of immigrants. Even though I suppose children of immigrants are native born too... but I guess I associate that term with people with a longer history in a given country than just one generation.
And in another moment, I'd encourage you to expand on what you wrote. I'm curious what your thoughts are.
Ironically at the same time that this thread was created someone on Facebook decided to question his friends for a study being done by a university on the same subject...
This is what one person said (note: this person, not on my friends list)
Quote:lost my jobs after 16 years of farm work to the illegals. I've been homeless and refused every assistance there is ever since.
Part of me wanted to say boo fucking hoo. What I want to know is how is it an immigrant's fault someone lost their job...here legally or not? Your employer, who's American, hired these people by exploiting the fact they aren't citizens and knew they could get away paying them much less.
To expand on what I said in my previous post I think it is sick both ways because yes, people did lose their jobs and that employers take advantage of people through paying them less, subjecting them to work conditions that aren't safe and so on all while the rest of the people are bitching about illegals and losing their job. So being an immigrant, latino, coming from a poor country to come here and be shafted (and probably not know it) and be made out to be a criminal is bullshit. However, I feel most Americans have their heads so far up their ass they can't see the light of day...
I think he said it better...
I think, once again, most of the xenophobic sentiment is due to the media...
The system is broken. I mean you have to pass a civics test, which judging by some of the people I went to high school with, most citizens couldn't pass anyway. Here we go holding people by a different standard.... While, yes, I think people moving to a country, any country, should probably know as much as possible about the country and it's history -- you are, after-all, living there. That being said, I think it is a BAD thing that we have immigrants who know more about the country they're moving to than the country's own citizen's do and I think it is unfair.
So you have to be 18 or older, ok, fine. You have to fill out a form, N-400
But wait, you can't actually do that because you have to already be in the US, it's an application for naturalization. Oh and by the way, hope you can speak and read English and also this is how our tax forms look and are equally confusing.
So you have to become a permanent resident, meaning you need a green card... Yeah there's a lot of ways to get a green card but most likely you need a job and maintain a residence.
So it takes about 5 years once you're here with a green card before you can apply for naturalization and have to prove you're all of these things. Then there's still reasons why you can still get the boot.
There's just so many hoops to go through and when times are tough, probably don't have broadband internet to look up all this stuff and research all the things you need to do and translate it all. I mean I wouldn't want to go through all that to move here, there simply needs to be a better process. That being said I think the overall picture of what's going wrong in the US is all the bureaucracy and popcorn legislation on everything that further complicates things. Used to it was fairly easy to file taxes, now you need an accountant to file your taxes for working at Burger King.
About 10 years ago before I got into my IT career, I worked fast food. I did my time in food service, not for me. There was a latino lady who worked there and spoke very little English. She was very friendly, always came to work, always positive, always got the work done. I don't remember everything but I know when she first started working there she spoke very little English. I want to say over the course of a year her and I would talk back and fourth, as I am a big for encouraging people. By the time I left she was able to carry on conversations, nothing huge but I think because I and other employees there were willing to help her she was able to learn more English.
So I think if we as a nation expect people to speak English, we need to be proactive and help people learn it by reaching out in some way. Besides, I got to learn some Spanish which over the years I have mostly forgotten.
When it comes to Native Americans, it is a different story. The US basically slaughtered many different tribes, some were completely eliminated such as the Comanche Indians and others. I think there is a huge debt when a government kills of a group of people, whether it is Native Americans, Jewish people, or any other group for that matter.
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Sadly, there is little value placed on knowing more than one language in this country, at least compared to other countries. Yes, NYC is a very unique example because you have the tight knit communities where everything is in their native language. In the case of the Hasidic Jews, they even have their own ambulances and medical facilities. You'll get a largely different answer from people down south, especially those bordering Mexico itself. Yes we are taught about the two: the melting pot being everyone's culture blending together to form one new culture and the salad bowl where each culture retains its own identity. As I see it, things are moving more and more towards the melting pot as children of immigrants often give up their parents' native language upon having their own families. Personally, I would prefer there to be a fusion of the two. I think it's wonderful to have different culture and identities. We should live in a world that recognizes our similarities and celebrates our differences. Your response had a lot of content in it, and I'm sure I didn't touch all of it, but you can use this as a springboard for whatever you like.
A good immigrant seeks to fit into society by adopting or atleast accepting and adapting to the culture and norms of the new nation.
A poor immigrant seeks to change the new nation into the one originally fled from.
A friend of a friend works in s kindergarden here in denmark. This kindergarden is seperated into two, by a tall fence. On one side there are the white kids. On the other side the brown and black. Literally apartheit.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing when i learnt of this. Integration requires exposure to and interaction with the new nation. And seperating kids?? Showing Tom and Achmed that their skincolour differences means they can't play with eachother is so damn wrong.
I have many immigrant friends.
What scares me most is natives who convert and become extremists.
Cuddly Wrote:A good immigrant seeks to fit into society by adopting or atleast accepting and adapting to the culture and norms of the new nation.
A poor immigrant seeks to change the new nation into the one originally fled from.
A friend of a friend works in s kindergarden here in denmark. This kindergarden is seperated into two, by a tall fence. On one side there are the white kids. On the other side the brown and black. Literally apartheit.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing when i learnt of this. Integration requires exposure to and interaction with the new nation. And seperating kids?? Showing Tom and Achmed that their skincolour differences means they can't play with eachother is so damn wrong.
I have many immigrant friends.
What scares me most is natives who convert and become extremists.
Seriously? Is there any other explanation besides race that the kids are divided?
And when you say natives - what do you mean? People who are ethnically Danish?
Confuzzled4 Wrote:Sadly, there is little value placed on knowing more than one language in this country, at least compared to other countries. Yes, NYC is a very unique example because you have the tight knit communities where everything is in their native language. In the case of the Hasidic Jews, they even have their own ambulances and medical facilities. You'll get a largely different answer from people down south, especially those bordering Mexico itself. Yes we are taught about the two: the melting pot being everyone's culture blending together to form one new culture and the salad bowl where each culture retains its own identity. As I see it, things are moving more and more towards the melting pot as children of immigrants often give up their parents' native language upon having their own families. Personally, I would prefer there to be a fusion of the two. I think it's wonderful to have different culture and identities. We should live in a world that recognizes our similarities and celebrates our differences. Your response had a lot of content in it, and I'm sure I didn't touch all of it, but you can use this as a springboard for whatever you like.
Theres not really anywhere in particular I am trying to go with this thread, other than to get a sense of what immigrant communities - which include the children of immigrants born in whatever country we are talking - in different places look like. And to what extent they are marginalized from the broader culture, or feel or are perceived as though they are. So whatever struck you enough to respond to is enough for me.
The melting pot vs the salad bowl is a very interesting debate to me. I view the melting pot not as many cultures being blended into one - but rather as many being blended into the dominant one. I know I have a biased perspective - which is why I want the opinions of others - but i view it in many ways as a loss. Where as I see the salad bowl as a gain - many different combining to create something new. I definitely view NYC as a salad bowl, I just had korean tex/mex burritos for dinner for fucks sake, but my limited experience outside of the city, and from what I've seen from the media, the news, entertainment, and experiences of friends - the rest of America, with a few notable exceptions, in general is more of a melting pot.
I mean a whole other layer on top of this for me would be gentrification, which in many ways is just coded language for white people returning to the cities, and how that is coming into a lot of conflict with the immigrant and ethnic enclaves of NYC. So where as some places in this country might worry that immigrants are coming in and changing their culture, in a lot of communities here, people worry about rich white kids coming in and changing their culture. But i think that might be a little too regionally focused to ask people outside of gentrifying cities to talk about. And i guess its also getting off topic - but I cant help my mind from drawing some connections.
In your experience, have you seen any successful fusions of the two? -The melting pot and the salad bowl. Would you be able to give examples of where you see that working or what that might look like?
InbetweenDreams Wrote:Ironically at the same time that this thread was created someone on Facebook decided to question his friends for a study being done by a university on the same subject...
This is what one person said (note: this person, not on my friends list)
Part of me wanted to say boo fucking hoo. What I want to know is how is it an immigrant's fault someone lost their job...here legally or not? Your employer, who's American, hired these people by exploiting the fact they aren't citizens and knew they could get away paying them much less.
To expand on what I said in my previous post I think it is sick both ways because yes, people did lose their jobs and that employers take advantage of people through paying them less, subjecting them to work conditions that aren't safe and so on all while the rest of the people are bitching about illegals and losing their job. So being an immigrant, latino, coming from a poor country to come here and be shafted (and probably not know it) and be made out to be a criminal is bullshit. However, I feel most Americans have their heads so far up their ass they can't see the light of day...
I think he said it better...
I think, once again, most of the xenophobic sentiment is due to the media...
Thats kind of boo fucking whoo, I agree. What bothers me in statements like that - losing jobs to "the illegals", or in a similar vein, losing a job due to affirmative action - is the entitlement. That feeling the speaker has like that job should have been theirs. I dont have much patience for that.
And I agree with you - that one of the big reasons that immigrant, whether they came here legally or not, worker might have gotten the job is really based on how vulnerable they are to exploitation. Its hard to think in this way when you are struggling to put bread on your table to feed your family, but in a situation like that neither side is making out perfectly. One isn't fucking the other over - they are both getting fucked by somebody else. And yeah, if more people were aware of that - and angered by it, it'd be better for the rest of us.
Tell me Danny Glover pulls that team together by the end of the movie?
Quote:So I think if we as a nation expect people to speak English, we need to be proactive and help people learn it by reaching out in some way. Besides, I got to learn some Spanish which over the years I have mostly forgotten.
I really like that. Its very nice. I like that you had an exchange. Language is an important thing, and it depends on good communication. And I think language in general, communication, can be one of humans greatest strengths. Its like a key to other people.
Quote: When it comes to Native Americans, it is a different story. The US basically slaughtered many different tribes, some were completely eliminated such as the Comanche Indians and others. I think there is a huge debt when a government kills of a group of people, whether it is Native Americans, Jewish people, or any other group for that matter.
Yeah. I think its unacceptable too.
How do you think a debt on that scale could be paid by a government?
Europe has dealt with the threat of radical muslims for centuries. We've had experience with genocide, wars and terror. Open a history book, read it and remember it. How hard could that be?
05-28-2017, 12:34 PM (Edited 05-28-2017, 01:03 PM by TigerLover.)
Quote:What is your relationship like with immigration or immigrant communities in your area? Are you close with any immigrants or children of immigrants? How do you view the immigrant communities in your area? How do you perceive their ability, or willingness, to integrate or assimilate to the broader culture and customs of your country? Do you view immigrants as a threat to your culture? Overall are immigrants a positive or negative force in your area? What makes a "good" immigrant vs a "bad" immigrant?
I'm genetically half-Irish but I was born and raised in England and other than a love of whiskey there's nothing Irish about me.
Despite myself i get seriously creeped out when i go into some areas of Birmingham where there's nothing but Indian people. Signs are in Hindi no one is speaking English, many of them can't speak English. A white man walking through those areas will draw weird looks and it reminds me of the time i went wandering around in rural Turkey except this is my native country. It's a jarring deeply unpleasant feeling and I completely understand xenophobia and even racism. It's tempting to react with rage and fear when you're made to feel like a foreigner in your own homeland.
But the simple scientific truth is that Immigration is a massive boon to our nation. Not just economically but culturally I love Brimingham's Chinese new year, Coventry's German Christmas market, Warwick's yearly Thai festival. All the wide variety of shows and artwork from around the world.
I once went to see the Yamoto drummers play in the heart of a medieval English town. Ivy covered cottage walls, a tavern that started serving ale during the war of the roses, cobblestone streets that knights once walked all thrumming with the sound of Japanese taiko drums.
There was something incredibly beautiful about that.
As for "what makes a good immigrant" it's the same thing that makes a good native. Respect for diversity!
A horrifying number of minority kids grow up in a purely ethnic neighborhood, go to school in a faith school with only kids and teachers from their own background, get jobs in that one neighborhood, shop in that one neighborhood, marry someone from that neighborhood in their local faith center and get no exposure to other cultures at all through their formative years. I went to university in the city of Wolverhampton (massive ethnic Indian population) I was relying on an Asian friend who lived there all his life to show me around the city centre. Until I found out that he'd never even been there before, he'd never been to the center of his own city!!!!
This total isolation is not healthy and it's no surprise people are more susceptible to extremism they emerge out into a wider nation where they are the minority and it's understandable if it does make them feel insecure and persecuted.
I love multiculturalism but if it's going to work we need to ensure that everyone interacts with multiple cultures from an early age. INCLUDING people from minority cultures.
TigerLover Wrote:I'm genetically half-Irish but I was born and raised in England and other than a love of whiskey there's nothing Irish about me.
Despite myself i get seriously creeped out when i go into some areas of Birmingham where there's nothing but Indian people. Signs are in Hindi no one is speaking English, many of them can't speak English. A white man walking through those areas will draw weird looks and it reminds me of the time i went wandering around in rural Turkey except this is my native country. It's a jarring deeply unpleasant feeling and I completely understand xenophobia and even racism. It's tempting to react with rage and fear when you're made to feel like a foreigner in your own homeland.
But the simple scientific truth is that Immigration is a massive boon to our nation. Not just economically but culturally I love Brimingham's Chinese new year, Coventry's German Christmas market, Warwick's yearly Thai festival. All the wide variety of shows and artwork from around the world.
I once went to see the Yamoto drummers play in the heart of a medieval English town. Ivy covered cottage walls, a tavern that started serving ale during the war of the roses, cobblestone streets that knights once walked all thrumming with the sound of Japanese taiko drums.
There was something incredibly beautiful about that.
As for "what makes a good immigrant" it's the same thing that makes a good native. Respect for diversity!
A horrifying number of minority kids grow up in a purely ethnic neighborhood, go to school in a faith school with only kids and teachers from their own background, get jobs in that one neighborhood, shop in that one neighborhood, marry someone from that neighborhood in their local faith center and get no exposure to other cultures at all through their formative years. I went to university in the city of Wolverhampton (massive ethnic Indian population) I was relying on an Asian friend who lived there all his life to show me around the city centre. Until I found out that he'd never even been there before, he'd never been to the center of his own city!!!!
This total isolation is not healthy and it's no surprise people are more susceptible to extremism they emerge out into a wider nation where they are the minority and it's understandable if it does make them feel insecure and persecuted.
I love multiculturalism but if it's going to work we need to ensure that everyone interacts with multiple cultures from an early age. INCLUDING people from minority cultures.
What about going into Indian neighborhoods creeps you out? Is there a higher rate of crime there, do you feel at risk, or is it more of an uncomfortable, disorienting feeling than a scared feeling? Why do you think a white man draws weird looks in those neighborhoods? Do you feel that people resent your presence there?
I agree with you, that ideally groups shouldn't be totally isolated from one another. I understand why there is comfort in finding people like yourself when you have immigrated from a different country, but I don't think to be completely isolated is helpful.
You said you can understand why minorities might feel insecure and persecuted by the broader society - what makes you say that?
You mention different cultural events in your city - do you think your area is more or less accepting of immigrants and foreigners?
I agree with what you say about having respect for diversity - Do you think that the Indian communities in your area lack that respect? Do you see any non Indians who live in those areas - whether they are ethnically English or otherwise?
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