Capital Punishment

[InbetweenDreams]

Rather than try to open a discussion on this on Facebook...I thought it would work better here. Facebook is a shit show and even though I know some of these people, it is unlikely to have an intelligent conversation on Facebook about anything, trust me. I could try ballonga sandwiches and it turn sideways.

The question is should there be capital punishment? Why or why not?

My stance is no. Frankly, I don't think it serves much purpose other than for the victims or their families. One could argue that it saves tax dollars. Frankly, I think being condemned to a 9x9 cell for a lifetime is worse than being put to death. I know a lot of people think they'll go to hell, but we don't really know that. They might, they might be going into the abyss, they might be reincarnated. If you're going to punish someone, punish them while they're alive. Just because someone get's 3 meals a day and gets to watch tv doesn't mean they enjoy it. Knowing that your life is meaningless is pretty powerful.

That being said...

That doesn't mean I think people should rot in a prison cell or be put to death. I also am aware that people are capable of some really heinous stuff. I don't have all the answers. I do know that the US has more people locked up than any other country and it's not because we have a higher crime rate. There's a lot we can be doing better. Somehow we should be rehabilitating people and there should also be justice, somehow we need to have a balance. However, I don't have the answer to all that.

I hope I don't trigger anyone or make anyone upset either by the thread or the contents of my post.

[Chase]

I think too many innocent people have been put to death for the death penalty to be justified. I don't know how many, but there's been enough cases of people either being proven innocent just before they were about to be executed - or worse, after.

I think the law should abide by the principle of Blackstone's ratio: it's better for a hundred guilty persons to go free, than for one innocent to suffer.

Too many people think it should be the reverse. Despite the fact that actual dictators have stated they think it should be the reverse, tons of people in the supposedly free world agree with them. This has become a common mindset for both conservatives and liberals, sadly.

You're right in that justice will never really be delivered for the most heinous of crimes. I don't really see how killing a murderer will somehow make up for the death of the victim. If anything, I think if we could somehow make the murderer feel guilty for their crime the same way the victim's loved ones feel grief , that would be the ultimate punishment, but as of now we have no way of doing that.

Personally, I think our justice system should be like that of "the Culture" in the Scottish writer Iain Banks's science fiction series. If someone commits a violent crime like murder, they get "slap droned" where a drone, an autonomous AI flying robot, follows them around for the rest of their life, making sure they don't do it again.

[Tjemka88]

I'm against capital punishment but not because I value human life a lot. It's just that it's basically not a punishment at all. One moment and it's all over. They release the criminal from any kind of suffering.

If someone hurt my loved one, I'd want them to suffer for it and experience the consequences of their wrongdoing every day. Life imprisonment would be a much effective solution because trust me - life in prison is not a walk in a park. I know from experience, I've been there myself.

Depending on how severe is the crime, your life in prison may be living hell from day one. That's what I would want to happen to the person who hurt my loved one - to go through the violence of other prisoners with no escape whatsoever.

[InbetweenDreams]

@Chase I don't think there is any doubt that humans will continue to do bad things. No matter what, even if we "fix" all the things wrong without our society. No more poverty, no more homelessness, etc. I think you would have a lot of benefit and I'm sure in such a society crime would be very low compared to what it is now. I do think there are a lot of people who are in prison who are innocent, hell some of the prosecutors who put them there know it. Makes you wonder how people go to sleep at night knowing they ended an innocent person's life. Makes you wonder how many people walking around town have no concious, feel no remorse or empathy.

@Tjemka88 This is where my comments kind of cross over with what I was about to get at in my reply to @Chase. I am, personally, against the death penalty. One reason is due to the possibility they're innocent, but I also don't think it truly brings justice. Do you think life imprisonment is justice? How do we know when a punishment fits a crime? When I was a kid I remember hearing that in some countries if you steal they cut off your hand. I don't know where or if that is true, but I think cutting someone's hand off for what I consider a petty crime a bit extreme.

[marshlander]

A state-condoned death sentence is barbaric. A privatised justice system seems worse. Somehow we allow the state to sponsor and forment wars between and within nations. Just as the only winner in a war is the company making the arms with which to kill, the privatised justice system needs bodies with which to feed the machine. The more it consumes the more it earns.

Until the state is prepared to take moral responsibility for its citizens money will always be the driver. I don't believe we have ever put serious and sustained effort into rehabilitation of offenders. Where it has been tried it has always been a Cinderella service.

That is not to say I don't believe that the response to the crime of, say, murder should make the victim's survivors feel that nothing has been done. A murderer should have to work very hard to be allowed to reintegrate fully into society - some may never make it. There are a lot of very damaged people out there, but the present system of justice in most countries simply hides the problems and does nothing to make anything or anyone better. I suppose a start would be to agree on what "better" actually means.

[InbetweenDreams]

@"marshlander" It's easier just to throw those people in the trash...and many agree that they ought to be tossed away. I do agree, especially in the US, the privatization of prisons and justice system in general is not good. Take bail bonds, they're supposed to be there so that the person doesn't sit in jail before their trial. Today it's just used to get your money and often judges just increase your bond so that you are stuck in jail. They say innocent until proven guilty but that in a lot of ways is bullshit. So yeah, there are things that need to be fixed from the bottom to the top and it won't be fixed anytime soon.

[Bookworm]

I'm against the death penalty too.

I do feel that life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment, for certain heinous crimes. All too often you see some ridiculous sentences reduced via the appeals court.

I've also read of several cases fairly recently where murderers due for parole have refused to cooperate with authorities, and divulge where they have hidden the remains of their victims. This just adds to the anguish of their victims families, who want nothing more than to bring their loved one home, and give them a decent burial and to have some form of closure. 
I think those prisoners should remain behind bars and have their parole delayed. They clearly have no remorse.

[James]

Capital punishment. does that mean the people in power? So many have been proved innocent after DNA, and new tests have been applied. Anyone know what a scapegoat is? Yes I agree with bookworm in many ways, however, those that show no remorse, laugh at the system, say that they have done evil and would do it again, do we want our taxpayer dollars supporting them during a life sentence? So many people's lives around the world have been taken during war, which I only know of 3 which may have had ligit reason for. Cannon fodder, that was me in nam

[InbetweenDreams]

@Bookworm That's very true and same with what @James said. Both innocent and very screwed up people who are complete psychopaths who use such things as bargaining chips to get out of prison. It is a tricky question. I do think life in prison is more effective and there are people you really can't "fix"

Who exactly deserves life in prison? Who deserves 20 years in prison...10 years? What about innocent people being wrongly convicted of crimes? It's not like you can refund someone's time. I think if prosecutors were in search of the truth and not trying to win the case we would have a lot less innocent people being convicted of crimes.

Of course that's not how it works.

One thing that I thought of is science is revealing that parts of the brain in psychopaths and sociopaths are less active and appear to be responsible for the behaviors. Suppose someone who has a brain anomaly that is responsible for their lack of empathy and violent behavior which we are able to fix in the future. They commit heinous crimes, should those people be reintegrated into the public?

[marshlander]

... One thing that I thought of is science is revealing that parts of the brain in psychopaths and sociopaths are less active and appear to be responsible for the behaviors. Suppose someone who has a brain anomaly that is responsible for their lack of empathy and violent behavior which we are able to fix in the future. They commit heinous crimes, should those people be reintegrated into the public?

There are plenty of dystopian novels that explore that idea ... Brave New World, 1984, A Clockwork Orange, Island to name just four.