Firearms

[Karl Rand]

I think the biggest issue is people not having any training... 

The biggest issue is most of America has lost its sanity.

[InbetweenDreams]

The biggest issue is most of America has lost its sanity.

You know, I don't care for nor pay much mind to opinions that are of hot air. @Karl Rand I think we've established that you don't like guns. If you would expand on what you have said up to this point in this thread I would welcome that, but this sort of bovine scatology that "America has lost its sanity" isn't contributing anything to the conversation.

Do you see what my issue is here? It's not you, it's not your position on the matter either.

Bet let's recap...

Here in Australia we have very strict and very limited laws covering firearms held by civilians. The vastly lower incidents of fatal shootings per head of population compared to ‘the Land of the Brave and the Free’ tells us something.
The 2nd amendment may have made sense when it was first written but the context and meaning have changed since then.

You might be on to something about the 2nd amendment. I think most people want a firearm for self-defense purposes and not be part of a militia. I also agree, the folks who wrote that had muzzle loading rifles and weren't thinking about what modern firearms can do today. Does that nullify the 2nd amendment?

I said ‘per head of population’ This has a specific meaning I suggest you’ve either missed or misunderstood.
My comment ‘nation has lost it’s sanity’ wasn’t snarky but something I've experienced as regretably true. I’ve been visiting the US since my mid 20’s some 50 years ago so have some idea of the profound changes that have taken place.

I understand what you're saying. Since less people have guns in Australia there will undoubtedly be less shootings and overall less chance that someone would be killed by a gun in Australia. I'm not arguing that removing guns doesn't reduce gun violence, heck I would also agree that it probably reduces homicides overall. So yes, sure, I think if we could magically remove all guns all at once that there would be less killings. But there's one problem with criminals, they don't care about whether something is legal. That has been a popular argument.

Getting to the second part of what you said. So over the last 50 years of you visiting the US off and on you say there have been profound changes. What are you referring to here? Because in the last 50-60 years a lot of things have changed and many things that have changed have had a huge impact on US culture in general, not just guns or crime for that matter. Perhaps you're referring to concealed carry? Because concealed carry 50 years ago was actually unheard of. It wasn't until the 80's roughly when state laws changed in favor of concealed carry.

The opinion he’s formed of an America armed to the teeth become more negative every time he visits his relatives. He’s no longer willing to have his children with him when he visits ‘home’.

His opinion is just that. Not sure where your friend lives but there are few places so dangerous that I would not feel comfortable staying. My opinion is that's pretty extreme. Despite the laws, it's not Looney Tunes here.

However, despite what anyone thinks about guns, the right to bear arms or the right to defend yourself, family and property. We do have to as a society decide on whether the loss of innocent lives is worth it. The fact of the matter is no matter what gun control laws are passed there will be more shootings, there will be more killings. Either that's something we have to accept and move on or do without the guns. Perhaps the answer might seem to come at an instant but I think it is more complex of an issue than what you're willing to admit.

Likewise, someone can just about as easily kill someone with a bowie knife, a ball bat and so on. I referenced an article about Michelle Dunn who was stabbed to death by a maniac. So one question is how do you stop people killing altogether? Also raises the question about self defense and whether a gun is justifiable.

[Karl Rand]

Point not taken. I repeat. America has lost it’s sanity.

[InbetweenDreams]

@Karl Rand Right, so you have nothing to say then? Then shut the fuck up and stay out of this thread.

[Karl Rand]

@Karl Rand Right, so you have nothing to say then? Then shut the fuck up and stay out of this thread.

Happily, I thought you’d have already deduced gun possession is something I don’t bother discussing with Americans at any length.

[JoelR]

So I have been giving some thought to buying a firearm and getting a concealed carry permit. Yes, you did read that right. There's been a number of disturbing things going on in my local area and seems people are getting bolder as time moves on. This would be of course for self defense.

There's of course pros and cons to it. The cons are pretty easy to pick out but some are not quite as obvious. Seems one of the bigger things to understand is when you're allow (with a permit) to carry a concealed firearm and it varies by state, if you're in close proximity to a school or government building, etc. Another is when it is appropriate to pull a gun on someone who is posing a threat to you. In many cases you might find yourself in a lot of trouble. For instance, someone gets in a fist fight and one pull a gun on them. In that case the guy who pulled out a gun is going to be in a lot of trouble most likely.

Of course there's training, which is imperative. You have to be safe with guns. All the accidents with guns are caused by people who thought, but didn't check, their gun was not loaded. And you have to be able to use a gun, hit a target, etc, otherwise why bother.

It is something I have to consider think about. A good 9mm pistol goes for $400-600. Applying for a permit to purchase is cheap, applying for a conceal carry permit is a bit more expensive and you have to go do a class (which I presume costs a good bit as well). Likewise, one will want to go to a gun range become more familiar with the firearm, target practice, etc.

That all being said, some of you might think I'm going to be another Yosemite Sam and going yee haw, bang bang... That's not what this is about. I'm seeing disturbing trends in this area with crime, some petty stuff and some more serious and violent. I have no interest in accumulating firearms, or AR-13's and assault rifles. As crazy as this might sound across the pond I do live in a country and in a region where guns are a plenty. Not necessarily coming from the doomsday thing, but I do think the economic fallout will result in more problems.

That being said, I think the pros to having a firearm is of course self-defense. Of course with that comes with a lot of potential problems, many of them being legal problems. I am curious what others do think, especially those of us who are in the US.

Just curious, are you concerned about the particular ramifications of your PERSONAL use of a gun?  OR are you interested in a general debate on gun control in America?  

If it's for your personal use, some thoughts in no particular order:
1.  One of my neighbors (who owns a gun with a concealed carry permit) told me the following: "Joel, if you're going to ever shoot someone in self-defense, shoot to kill.  Don't shoot to maim, when they can sue you later and say that they were acting in self-defense or accuse you of attacking them.  If you're going to stop someone, then stop them."   
2. I think it's important to reflect upon how you would normally deal in high-pressure situations.  Are you calm, cool, and can de-escalate with words?  Or do you have a hot temper, knee jerk reaction, or suppressed anger wanting to physically lash out?
3.  People who purchased guns during covid tended to have more anxiety.  And be more suicidal:  https://www.rutgers.edu/news/people-who-...e-suicidal

[InbetweenDreams]

Just curious, are you concerned about the particular ramifications of your PERSONAL use of a gun?  OR are you interested in a general debate on gun control in America?  

If it's for your personal use, some thoughts in no particular order:
1.  One of my neighbors (who owns a gun with a concealed carry permit) told me the following: "Joel, if you're going to ever shoot someone in self-defense, shoot to kill.  Don't shoot to maim, when they can sue you later and say that they were acting in self-defense or accuse you of attacking them.  If you're going to stop someone, then stop them."   
2. I think it's important to reflect upon how you would normally deal in high-pressure situations.  Are you calm, cool, and can de-escalate with words?  Or do you have a hot temper, knee jerk reaction, or suppressed anger wanting to physically lash out?
3.  People who purchased guns during covid tended to have more anxiety.  And be more suicidal:  https://www.rutgers.edu/news/people-who-...e-suicidal

The thread's main intent wasn't solely to debate gun control and was mostly to do with me and my consideration for purchasing a firearm and seeking a carry concealed permit. I guess you can say, I haven't made up my mind because of some of those things you bring up.

Your neighbor is mostly correct. However, the person's family can still sue you for wrongful death a so on in civil court. At any rate it is a good idea to look at insurance that cover for "lawful use of a firearm" and understand how the policy works. That or have an attorney on retainer.

I think #2 is a valid concern and has gotten people into a lot of trouble. Consider the case of Michael Drejka, got pushed to the ground by a black man and pulled his gun a shot the guy. Claimed the black guy was coming for him and clearly in the video he took several steps back when Drejka open fired. What was running in his head, did he really think he was in danger? At any rate it cost him 20 years for manslaughter. Being able to make good judgement is a big deal. Depending on how you look at it can be a motivator itself that more "loose cannons" have guns.

Concerning the study, it is interesting that they see that in the data they collected. I didn't have any thoughts about purchasing a gun say last year. This is mostly due to a surge in crime, burglaries, theft and so on here in my area which is normally deemed safer. I do realize that things like home invasions or car jackings are pretty rare but they do happen. I will admit that in past parts of my life I have faced depression and anxiety is something that I do deal with and I cope with it, doesn't mean I'm going to brandish a gun the first time someone gets into an argument at a traffic light.

Interestingly enough I interviewed a retired professor from Rutgers University for my podcast and I did ask him about a poem (which I mistakenly referred to it as an article). Haven't uploaded a clip yet, however, here is a link to itlink to his poem. When it comes to the debate about gun control I think we have to accept that if we're going to continue to allow guns that mass shootings will happen and continue to happen. I don't think there is any legislation that can be passed that will stop that. So we have to decide whether or not it is worth the price to be able to bear arms. That is also something I am at odds with, I haven't made up my mind.

One of the things that worry me when it comes to carrying a gun is accidental fire. What if I do something where I accidentally fire the gun. Forget shooting myself in the foot, what if I accidentally shoot someone else? My sister, niece or some random person. Those are real concerns. While I think my attention being brought to that issue might mean I might be more safe but accidental shootings happen all the time. That's why I think people should have training to be able to have a firearm.

So I am not entirely sure one way or the other. My position on guns isn't solidified either. I understand why people like guns and why people hate them and want to do away with them.

[InbetweenDreams]

And this is why I feel that some people shouldn't carry guns. I don't think there's any way anyone could tell whether someone would do something this foolish. The point was raised whether not someone can deal with the emotional aspect of carrying a gun. I'd say quite a few can't and those who don't...well they call those a barrage of charges...felonies and misdemeanors. I've censored out the names since this isn't going to be on a news site most likely.

At approximately 1:41 pm, on June 26th, the ***** County E-911 Communications Center received a phone call in reference to a Road Rage incident that involved one motor vehicle being shot into multiple times while driving. During this time the three victims, all adults, who live in a nearby county and was just visiting car lots in our area that day, reported the call. This incident happened near the Wal-Mart Supercenter and the Ingles Intersection on Hwy. 19/74.
While the suspect’s vehicle was seen driving in the east side of the Town of *******, it was eventually located at the Wal-Mart Supercenter by a Deputy with the ******* County Sheriff’s Office. At this time a Patrol Officer with the ******* Police Department arrived to assist. Shortly after the suspect, a Mr. *******, from ******* , was approached, a scuffle began between the suspect and the Deputy and Patrol Officer. The suspect was then subdued and arrested after two civilians that were in the area, assisted the arresting law enforcement officers. Both the Deputy and the Patrol Officer received superficial and muscular injuries due to this.
Mr. ******* was charged with the following offenses: Discharge a Weapon into Dwelling/Moving Vehicle, Going Armed to the Terror of the Public, Discharge Firearm in City Limits, Assault of a Law Enforcement Officer, Resisting Public Officer and Open Container. He is currently incarcerated in the ******* County Detention Center under a $30,000.00 secured bond with a July 1st, 2021, court date. Future charges may also be pending as this investigation continues.
While these Road Rage incidents seem to be occurring more frequently across our state and nation, the victims did exactly what they were supposed to do and called 911 instead of taking matters into their own hands. This incident could have ended in the worst-case scenario. Due to the nature of this investigation, this is the only information that can be released as this time. As the investigation continues, more information will be released to the public.

The charges he had consist of 2 felonies and 4 misdemeanors and likely will have other charges. He will undoubtedly spend time in prison, luckily no one was killed or injured.

[ceez]

I guess I'll put my two cents in, I grew up in the countryside of Virginia so guns were pretty common growing up. A lot of my friends parents had guns which were always locked up, mostly shotguns and hunting rifles and we were taught gun safety early on, never point a gun at someone loaded or not, aim the gun at the ground when cocking back or reloading etc. Personally I say go for it, research the one you want and look for a good balance of weight and power, I have a 1911 and it has some weight to it but it helps with the recoil,  just make sure you know your states gun laws. I hope to never have to use it really, I honestly got it because I wanted to start a collection which I know sounds crazy to some but again being from the country a neighbor of mine had 6 guns by the time he was 19 and in high-school a friend of mine got an m16 for his 18th birthday.

As far as banning guns in the US, we are a little to far gone, I mean there's hunters, people who live further out in rural areas that need to fight off larger critters and there's the point @InbetweenDreams made earlier that criminals are in the habit of breaking laws and as dumb as some criminals are they know not to commit crimes with a legal purchased registered firearm. BUT, our biggest weapon will always be our brain, avoiding dangerous situations and staying calm to deescalate a sticky situation.

[InbetweenDreams]

And really if you look at what many states are doing it is much easier to get a CCW permit now than say 30 years ago. The consensus has changed about carrying a gun. I do think there are, generally speaking, those who have a gun and those who are looking for an excuse to use one on someone. It does concern me about the number of people who lack the discipline, self control to keep their wits about them.

I had this to say about the story I posted above....

I know I shouldn't ever read comments on anything but, I don't know what is difficult to understand. Someone who I presume has a CCW, had his firearm on him. Gets into some road rage incident with another driver. Gets angry and starts "shooting into" the other vehicle. No idea whether he started it or the other people did and it really doesn't matter so much. Him being a CCW holder he should know that doing something as simple as showing his firearm to the other driver is a really bad idea, let alone shoot at someone in their vehicle. Anyone who carries should ask themselves if they have the mental fortitude to handle situations like this and if you don't think you can then you probably don't need to be carrying. Had this guy simply backed off, pulled over, etc he would have been at home with his kids.
Believe me I get it. I hate it when people tailgate, cut me off...I get a fair amount of crap driving a Prius. There's plenty of "big boys" in their pickup trucks who think they're gonna show the guy in the Prius who's the big boy by rolling coal. I have to lie, I'm really impressed by their 2nd gen Dodge (I hope their dash isn't cracked).
It's a hard lesson to learn and some growing up not to give in and escalate the situation. People are crazy, you never know what someone else would do and this is an example. I should know better than to read comments on this story because I have read things ranging from "this guy needs to be put down" to "the police are lying." Well, I don't think he needs to be put down or anything crazy. I think between the financial burden and the hell he's going to experience dealing with the "not so fun" side of the legal system will do enough. I also don't think for a minute the police made up stuff or that the victims made up that he shot into or towards their vehicle. I don't know about you but if I told the cops that someone shot at me in my car there had better be bullet holes, broken glass, shell casings, video, witnesses, etc to prove my story. Cops don't like being lied to, seems to really piss them off. I would also think the lack of physical evidence, witnesses would be a problem. That being said, I'm not by any means an expert.
Even in the case where he is innocent. He participated in escalating the situation to the point where someone felt they needed to call 911 on him. Again, don't know about you but I don't want to be in the "race to the courthouse" over something as dumb as road rage. While I don't know what happened but I'm inclined to think neither he or the other people did much in the way in deescalating thing given the outcome. Nobody wins in this sort of crap. Sometimes being the bigger man is simply not giving in, I think a lot of heard something like that before and it is easier said than done. Not saying this guy is a terrible person or anything like that, I don't know the guy and I know nothing about him. I'm guessing his anger and his inability to control his emotions got the better of him in (almost) the worst way possible. I think he is fortunate that neither he or the other people got killed.