Pronouns

[InbetweenDreams]

Perhaps I have been under a rock and perhaps I'm not with it but I've taken notice a lot of talk about use of pronouns lately. Now, this being a hot button issue I would recommend against following this thread if you are easily triggered or your reaction is to call me a fucking bigot and hope that I get cancer. I have ZERO patience for people who default to aggression and insults. I have ZERO intention to insult or berate those who identify as the opposite gender than they appear or those who are non-binary. I think people should be addressed by the gender they identify with. Pretty simple right?.

Where I take exception is the expectation that we're all supposed to introduce ourselves as "Hi I'm John, He/Him" when we're out in public. I think it is insane. I don't think it is unreasonable to correct someone say, "Oh, it's Mr, not Ms..."

I do think it is wrong to knowingly misgender someone with nefarious intent. I think that is obvious.

In a face to face situation where I might be unsure I might use they or them as opposed to guessing to be more polite. However, the point of the matter is that the world doesn't care that I'm gay, the world doesn't care what I identify as or what my sexuality is. Most people don't care and those that do, well, they can go fuck off. I do have a trans co-worker. I address her as she and her as because she identifies as female. There was never a big to do about pronouns.

That being said, I am for using the correct pronouns, I am fine with those who want to make it known how they want to be addressed. I feel like this is a something to the effect of a solution looking for a problem. Just be a decent human.

Frankly when it comes to the trans community, since the gender issue comes up more frequently, I think there's far more important issues to tackle over someone being address as mister and not miss, like the violence and sexual abuse many encounter.

Finally, I do hope that I have not offended anyone, and I am open for discussion on the matter and I should hope it remains civil.

[Karl Rand]

You certainly haven’t offended me but then I’m alergic to all manner of politically correct social ‘rules’.

[Bhp91126]

In a face to face situation where I might be unsure I might use they or them as opposed to guessing to be more polite. However, the point of the matter is that the world doesn't care that I'm gay, the world doesn't care what I identify as or what my sexuality is. Most people don't care and those that do, well, they can go fuck off. I do have a trans co-worker. I address her as she and her as because she identifies as female. There was never a big to do about pronouns.

It is also fine to ask someone you can’t place what pronouns they prefer since you don’t want to make assumptions.

I must admit that when someone uses they/them at first I still look for the others.

[InbetweenDreams]

You certainly haven’t offended me but then I’m alergic to all manner of politically correct social ‘rules’.

I'm not entirely sure it is being politically correct. I feel like it is often virtue signaling and those who are narcissistic...

It is also fine to ask someone you can’t place what pronouns they prefer since you don’t want to make assumptions.

I must admit that when someone uses they/them at first I still look for the others.

Sure, I suppose there are several ways to approach it without making assumptions and not come off as rude. However, no one has ever asked me what my pronouns are, people just assume I'm a guy. If I were to meet someone who is say 8 months pregnant and otherwise appears to be female is it wrong to assume they're female... I raise this because there was a TikTok video of such who identified as a male. Of course there's no way to tell if this was authentic or not but I'll assume that it is.

It appears to me that there is a difference from being rude, being polite and being unrealistic. Honestly, I feel like some people, clearly not everyone, seek attention. Afterall being a victim because someone misgendered you unintentionally delegitimizes those who are victims are sexual abuse, assault, rape because some bigoted scumbag sees trans people (and others in the LGBTQ+ community) as a sexual novelty to exploit. That's what irritates me. But let me back up and make it clear. I'm saying that the people who get offended because someone assumed their gender (without nefarious intent) are looking to be offended and I take exception to that. The LGBTQ+ community gains nothing from people who behave that way, frankly I find it narcissistic.

Now perhaps I'm making bold assumptions and perhaps I'm missing something to all this. If I have missed something here do tell. Again, I have no intent on offending anyone.

[Bhp91126]

Please use the pronouns the other person wants you to use.

Why should people ask cis-gender male you for your pronouns if you present as male? Politely asking for pronouns is for when you are not sure which to use.

Trans people are usually happy to correct someone about which pronouns they use, repeated misgendering them however is insulting.

Also, misgendering an individual that goes to great lengths to present as male or female is an asshole move as well.

[InbetweenDreams]

Please use the pronouns the other person wants you to use.

Why should people ask cis-gender male you for your pronouns if you present as male? Politely asking for pronouns is for when you are not sure which to use.

Trans people are usually happy to correct someone about which pronouns they use, repeated misgendering them however is insulting.

Also, misgendering an individual that goes to great lengths to present as male or female is an asshole move as well.

Exactly.

[Karl Rand]

The safest method is to either ask or start with neutral terms such as ‘yourself’. The central problem though is ancient. Given so many civilisations have enforced rigid gender appearance rules it’s no wonder we can fall into traps. Some mistakenly think if, for instance, someone has put some obvious effort into looking as ‘masculine’ as possible they expect to be addressed a male. What I find seriously rude are those individuals who expect new acquaintances to somehow by psychic intuition know which side of the fence they fall on. There’s another often hidden issue here, the arrogance of hetero males demonstrating their animosity towards anyone not fulfilling ‘manly’ stereotypes by referring to them as ‘her’ , ’she' etc. 
It’s a jungle of contradictions that’s led me to address anyone whose chosen gender assignation is unclear as ‘darling’ or ‘you’.
But even that can get you in trouble with those who are actually searching for offence. 
 I don’t much care how people refer to me so long as they don’t call me a silly old fart.

[InbetweenDreams]

The safest method is to either ask or start with neutral terms such as ‘yourself’. The central problem though is ancient. Given so many civilisations have enforced rigid gender appearance rules it’s no wonder we can fall into traps. Some mistakenly think if, for instance, someone has put some obvious effort into looking as ‘masculine’ as possible they expect to be addressed a male. What I find seriously rude are those individuals who expect new acquaintances to somehow by psychic intuition know which side of the fence they fall on. There’s another often hidden issue here, the arrogance of hetero males demonstrating their animosity towards anyone not fulfilling ‘manly’ stereotypes by referring to them as ‘her’ , ’she' etc. 

Same with this crap about beta males or simps. So basically beta males are deemed as pussies and simps alike. A simp is a guy who tries to hard to get a girl or uses virtue signalling. Supposedly these are bad things to be according to some. Frankly, I call bullshit. I think there are extremes that should be avoided....nothing more annoying than some "alpha" male who arrogant and rude and the same goes to the whinny person who has zero self confidence and whines about everything. These are both self centered positions...the alpha male thinks he's hot shit and everything is about him and the beta male thinks everyone is out to knock him down and internalizes things. Getting back to the gender stuff... Really, stepping back this whole thing has nothing to do with gender or gender identity or trans people, it is really about people who are so narcissistic and wanting to be victim that they have to find a way to take offense so they can make it all about them.

I guess all in all this thread is more about narcissists than anything. But does raise the question is there any correlation to the upcoming generation of people (some who happen to be non-gender conforming) and narcissistic behavior? Or are all the cringe TikTok videos and such just confirmation bias?

Let me show you something that is cringy...and what makes it cringy is nothing to do with democratic socialism...



Regardless of what you think about democratic socialism, you have to realize those who oppose are eating this shit up, right or wrong.

Hopefully this isn't me going on a incoherent rant about much to do about nothing...

[Tjemka88]

I don't know if it's good or bad but asking for pronouns is not a thing where I live. If you look like a male/female, people are going to address you as the gender you appear to be. If they're unsure, they'll probably ask for your name and decide what your gender is based on that.

[InbetweenDreams]

@Tjemka88 I don't think asking for pronouns is really a thing anywhere, I would only ask if I was unsure. I think the practice (as shown in the video in my previous post) is often virtue signaling and not because they're trying to be polite or politically correct. Of course, throughout this thread there are many ways to still be polite to those who are not gender conforming. Those who are gender non-conforming and also get offended because the cashier at the grocery store called them sir (because they look like a guy) are the people I take exception to.

Of course if I were in Latvia I wouldn't be telling random people in public what pronouns to use when addressing me...