UK churches performing 'exorcisms' on gays

[Mark]

Can I ask a question about Religion and that.. Does any religion welcome homosexual people? Or is it all GAH BURN THEM!!! :eek:

[marshlander]

I dont mean this to offend, I notice there are quite a few people who will disagree with what Im going to say.

I don't think preocedure would work. However, I do believe in God. (I just don't believe in some of the things he says eg, Noahs arc ect.)

There is no evidence that God has actually "said" anything. A lot of men have written stories saying he has ...

When people ask me how you can be gay and religous at the same time I simply reply with- 'The bible says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. It doesn't say believe in everything he says and thou shalt be saved.' Im not 'over the top' religous though.

This whole 'Cure the gay thing' is just stupid. Those Priests should come to terms with us, and start to believe that God still loves us.

I quite like the Stonewall t-shirt I have seen many times bearing the message "Some people are gay, get over it". I don't quite follow the believers' logic on this one. God is perfect, therefore God does not make mistakes? God made me. Therefore how can I be a mistake? The only way they seem to be able to deal with that is to insist that being gay is a personal choice. Truth is it isn't and it doesn't matter and it's none of their damn business anyway.

However, If there was something definate out there. If this procedure was 100% efficent, I would agree. A world where sexuality was controlible would just be a clearer place to live don't you think?

100% efficient and controllable sexuality?? What a horrible idea! Are you seriously suggesting it would be okay to torture people for the number of months it takes to get a result because it makes things neater and tidier ... and it works? Apart from the very dystopian nature of your suggestion wouldn't you feel, as a believer, that such tampering would be like defecating on your god's wonderful creations?

[sox-and-the-city]

I've got to agree with Marshy insofar as i think a cure is horrifically counterproductive. I'm far too ill and tired to eloquently say what i want to regarding most of this subject but cure = bad would be the general gist.

The rest of this post WAS a rant but one i shall rewrite as soon as i have the energy and lucidity to do my feelings justice. But if you can insert one of my previous indginant rants about religion for the time being, that'd be really nice.

[marshlander]

If I understand you a little, Sox, your relationship with your god is important to you. I respect also that you feel this is a personal relationship and is one of the ways in which you make sense of this world. We all have ways in which we cope with life's mysteries.

While I am no longer able to accept the concept of a supreme being (expecially a "jealous god" who demands my unquestioning fealty) I am very aware of the beauties and horrors of the natural world, of ideas and of the things that we create. Whilst I try to understand this existence's phenomena in rational terms I often respond emotionally and many experiences elicit tears as a response. I am prone to long moments of awe and wonder and contemplation. There are many things that I do not understand and cannot explain and I rejoice that these things exist. I don't know if these feelings are what other people experience as moments of spirituality and it doesn't matter. My place in the panorama of life on this world is utterly insignificant, yet my centric little ego demands that, by the time I die, I have tried to leave the place around me a bit tidier, and maybe someone's life a little less troubled for having met me. After that it won't matter. I hope I make good fertiliser.

I marvel at the diversity of ideas, of needs and of expressions of life's creations. I celebrate and embrace difference (including those born of race, culture, belief, sexuality, self-identity and [dis]ability), but I do expect and demand that I be allowed to do so. If other people interpret this life differently, so be it. Their ideas enrich my experience. However, my freedom to live my life as I feel appropriate stops at the point where my "freedoms" begin to chip away at the freedoms of others. It seems to me to be a reasonable balance if I expect the same of, and for, others. Ultimately I alone am responsible for my actions. I refuse to carry out the demands of a constructed or imaginary deity (be they of the ancient or the modern variety), but understand that once in a while I get caught up in groupthink. My actions have consequences, which I hope to be able to accept with the good grace or the rage that occasion demands. To get back on topic, these "exorcisms" (whether of the magical or psychiatric variety) are a dreadful abuse and rage seems an appropriate response. That is what prompts me join others on the street in demonstration. I wish I had the courage to take a solo stand when others fail to be moved by the same things.

I don't know if this makes sense. Like anyone else I am pretty sure I am riddled with contradictions. I'm not even sure I have worked out how to explain what I really think about life, but perhaps this might go a little way towards explaining a little of how I can feel so angry when a subscriber to a belief system feels that they have been granted an authority to dictate how others may or may not live their lives.

[peterinmalaga]

Until I hear GOD speak (not men speaking in the name of God) I have no reason to believe that God exists. Those who say they believe in God (whatever that means) must accept the whole package: he is, after all, the supreme being. I hate being intolerant but you cannot tolerate organisations which for centuries have tortured, killed and wished us off the face of the earth. If you need a religion try the Quakers:

[peterinmalaga]

Continued from above (I hit the wrong button!)
The Quakers do not demand belief in a god. But at the end of the day it is other human beings (women and men) we rely on for support when things get bad, so cultivate your friendships, lovers, family etc. We have a lovely word in Liverpool which describes religious fanaticism exactly - GOBSHITE!

[sox-and-the-city]

Those who say they believe in God (whatever that means)

What exactly is it you don't understand??

[peterinmalaga]

Hi Sox and the City,
I’m new here so don’t really know where you are at on this God thing. So I hope I don’t insult you in any way with my explanation.
What I don’t understand is 1. God and 2. the belief in God.
I am by no means a theologian, nor would I want to be, but I think that any theologian would agree with me that God, by definition, cannot be understood by us mere mortals.
The belief in God is even more incomprehensible to me. I cannot grasp how you can believe in something you cannot understand. I cannot attribute any meaning to the word “believe” in the context of God. I believe that you, Sox, live in Aberdeen. That means I cannot be sure of this but there seems no point in disbelieving it either. But if someone on this forum (or anywhere else) claimed to be God or to be writing in the name of God, well, I’m sorry, I would definitely disbelieve that. It is just not credible in my opinion. I have never witnessed anything supernatural in my life, so how can I believe in the supernatural? And I cannot trust anybody who claims to have knowledge of the supernatural, because usually they make this claim in order to place themselves in a position of power over other people. And 2000 years or more of history shows me that the church has done this all along the line. Why do they call us faggots? Because we were burned along with the witches. Incidentally the film, Brokeback Mountain, shows how these practices have still not died out.

[fredv3b]

What I don’t understand is 1. God and 2. the belief in God.
I am by no means a theologian, nor would I want to be, but I think that any theologian would agree with me that God, by definition, cannot be understood by us mere mortals.

That seems perfectly reasonable.

The belief in God is even more incomprehensible to me. I cannot grasp how you can believe in something you cannot understand. I cannot attribute any meaning to the word “believe” in the context of God. I believe that you, Sox, live in Aberdeen. That means I cannot be sure of this but there seems no point in disbelieving it either. But if someone on this forum (or anywhere else) claimed to be God or to be writing in the name of God, well, I’m sorry, I would definitely disbelieve that. It is just not credible in my opinion. I have never witnessed anything supernatural in my life, so how can I believe in the supernatural?

If we understood God, then firstly he wouldn't be God, and secondly, we would not so much believe in God as 'know' in God. Its a question of faith. Faith cannot, by definition, be rationally justified. If we had rational cause to believe in God then it would not be faith.

And I cannot trust anybody who claims to have knowledge of the supernatural, because usually they make this claim in order to place themselves in a position of power over other people. And 2000 years or more of history shows me that the church has done this all along the line.

Perhaps history, being the record of the powerful, does not record the many who did not seek power?

[peterinmalaga]

On the question of religious faith I suppose we have to agree to differ, which is OK, as long as the religious do not use their “faith” as a justification to oppress minorities such as ourselves. But that is exactly what is happening with these exorcisms. And neither the Pope (formerly a member of the Hitler Youth and still hanging on to much of that Nazi intolerance) nor the Archbishop of Canterbury give me any faith in the church.